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Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

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Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#481

Post by maltalex »

The discussion here is interesting, but I haven't seen any psychological and sociological aspects of hiring mentioned yet. Not all hiring decisions are rational.

First, there's a culture thing - when a company is composed out of 20 year olds, it's natural for them to prefer working with other young people who they can relate to. That 40 year old job applicant, the one with the kids and the years of experience in companies that no longer exist doesn't look as relatable as someone your own age.

Second, there's ego. In a company in which junior and even mid level managers are 25-35 years old, who wants to hire a 45 year old "veteran" that has 10 years more experience? Managing someone more knowledgeable than you is a challenge. It's much easier to get a fresh graduate and mold him into the employee you want him to be. Ego-wise, it's much nicer being the mentor than the mentee.

There are many more aspects to this and I suspect that they play a more important role than at least some of the the purely rational reasons for ageism in our industry.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#482

Post by mattmanser »

cutcss wrote: post #456
mulmen wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No of course not. Anyone can buy either magazine. Those two examples are completely different. In the magazine case you are taking out an advertisement with no ability to discriminate. In the Facebook case there is a specific setting based on age to show job ads . Job seekers over the age of 40 are protected so this is discrimination against a protected class. The problem is not that young people were targeted, the p…

You say it like it is that simple to fix; they could ask for photo in the curriculum and just discard the few that looks old, -after targeting job ads on pages that are disproportionaly "liked" by the age range they want- The only true way to solve this is to force by law to hire older people (e.g. 30% of your workforce must be over 40); otherwise all this proxies like trying to regulate third-party ads and else its…

It is an easy fix.

Job ads have no age options allowed.

Fixed.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#483

Post by wellboy »

combatentropy wrote: post #66

It doesn't make sense to me to discriminate against people with more experience. Can someone explain it to me? I have heard that companies like recent grads because they are (1) more malleable and (2) can be paid less. But neither of those reasons seem to me strong enough. I'm talking completely about the company's own interests. Let's address the first reason: malleability. A recent grad presumably will adopt the co…

There are also a lot more developers who have ingrained work routines that are just bad. You might be a 10x developer, but there are a lot of 1x developers, 0.3x developers than 10x developers. If they are younger, you can still change their ways a lot better.

If you're the hottest startup around, yes, you can only hire 10x developers.

However, if you're the average tech company, like most are, you cannot. Those 0.3x developers and 1x developers with bad work routines occupy the most job positions in companies.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#484

Post by gaius »

maltalex wrote: post #481

The discussion here is interesting, but I haven't seen any psychological and sociological aspects of hiring mentioned yet. Not all hiring decisions are rational. First, there's a culture thing - when a company is composed out of 20 year olds, it's natural for them to prefer working with other young people who they can relate to. That 40 year old job applicant, the one with the kids and the years of experience in comp…

mold him into the employee you want him to be

Exploit him or her with false promises. FTFY.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#485

Post by lmm »

emodendroket wrote: post #332
dreamfactored wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been lucky enough to be on projects where it's done well (not scrum) and would never go back after working that way.

I've experienced "no methodology; just people kind of describing what they want and you make it up as you go along" and Scrum and I prefer the former, but I suppose it's possible that someone out there is doing Agile in a way that is better than the one I learned in a bunch of excruciatingly boring training sessions from consultants. e: Actually I did Kanban too and that was OK, but that is a lot closer to the "no me…

Kanban is very much Agile. Scrum can be implemented in a variously heavy to lightweight way, though FWIW I found having leftover time at the end of a sprint that could only be used for non-business-facing work (e.g. improving the build system, refactoring of code that wasn't immediately being worked on) to be very valuable.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#486

Post by lmm »

emodendroket wrote: post #246
lorenzq wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that older Unix or C++ programmer doesn't have a strong bias against Javascript, functional programming, new es6/es7 concepts, and web appliactions in general, then sure. I see many of these types of people even on HN with biases though. Age shouldn't be used as a catch all filter, but I can see how it might be faster to screen those who have been too content to stick to their tools without catching up to industry…

People who are early in their careers can be quite dogmatic too.

It's possible but it's a lot less common IME.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#487

Post by ownagefool »

combatentropy wrote: post #66

It doesn't make sense to me to discriminate against people with more experience. Can someone explain it to me? I have heard that companies like recent grads because they are (1) more malleable and (2) can be paid less. But neither of those reasons seem to me strong enough. I'm talking completely about the company's own interests. Let's address the first reason: malleability. A recent grad presumably will adopt the co…

It could be slighly more complex than just be discriminated on based on age.

To be perfectly honest, I'd rather work with people who are better than me and who know things that I don't. Sadly, I work in a location and an industry where those people are thin on the ground, and thus I'm usually deciding between people who have less knowledge than I think they really should for the roles we're advertising.

I'm not going to lie, when someone has 20 years experience on paper but has a shallow understanding of their trade, I'd rather hire the grad with similar knowledge if all else is equal.

With that said, I have hired people who are older than me as junior members of a team before, but that's because they show an interest in learning and improving. Usually this means they've been transitioning into the role from another area.

Interviewing is a crap shoot though. I have no idea if I'm good at it or not because I'll never experience the world where I've made different choices. All I know is I expect senior people who know their shit and when they disagree with me, I expect them to be able to argue their point in a friendly and somwhat clear manner.

P.S. We're hiring "devops" contractors paying above market rate. It's not a thing about being cheap, it's simply having a quota of allowed hires and trying to get people who can do the job.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#488

Post by lmm »

3chelon wrote: post #469
CobrastanJorji wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does not, no. The average age is 29, and they've brought in some people in their 60s. https://www.ycombinator.com/faq/#q42

Paul Graham is no spring chicken, so it would somewhat hypocritical to be ageist when you're old.

Maybe Graham believes he couldn't start a successful startup himself at his current age. Maybe that was his reason for moving into VC.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#489

Post by coldtea »

combatentropy wrote: post #66

It doesn't make sense to me to discriminate against people with more experience. Can someone explain it to me? I have heard that companies like recent grads because they are (1) more malleable and (2) can be paid less. But neither of those reasons seem to me strong enough. I'm talking completely about the company's own interests. Let's address the first reason: malleability. A recent grad presumably will adopt the co…

>It doesn't make sense to me to discriminate against people with more experience. Can someone explain it to me?

Companies don't care for more experience. The experience the younger programmers have is "good enough" for them, especially weighted with all the other benefits from hiring them (smaller wages, more impressionable, longer hours, less/no family commitments, etc).

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#490

Post by gaius »

andai wrote: post #416
avs733 wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.fastcompany.com/28121/they-write-right-stuff

> That’s the culture: the on-board shuttle group produces grown-up software, and the way they do it is by being grown-ups. It may not be sexy, it may not be a coding ego-trip — but it is the future of software. When you’re ready to take the next step — when you have to write perfect software instead of software that’s just good enough — then it’s time to grow up.

but it is the future of software

It's over two decades since that was written. I remember reading it when it was first published. Does it look much like the future?

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