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Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

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Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#401

Post by andai »

adrianN wrote: post #392
user5994461 wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Second advice. If you want to pretend that quality matters, move to aerospace, finance, or any critical systems. Third advice. It's not enough to fix bug, everyone MUST know that you fixed that weird bug that customers were complaining about for years and noone could understand the cause.

> If you want to pretend that quality matters, move to aerospace, finance, or any critical systems. The important word here is pretend . If the system is safety critical you'd think that quality matters. It doesn't. What matters is following the process laid out in ISO 26262 or whatever standard applies to your field. Whether or not that improves quality is not important (it does, but only a little). The important pa…

andai.depression++;

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#402

Post by Bahamut »

leggomylibro wrote: post #76
combatentropy wrote: post #66

It doesn't make sense to me to discriminate against people with more experience. Can someone explain it to me? I have heard that companies like recent grads because they are (1) more malleable and (2) can be paid less. But neither of those reasons seem to me strong enough. I'm talking completely about the company's own interests. Let's address the first reason: malleability. A recent grad presumably will adopt the co…

It's a race to the bottom. You could pay more for better work that gets done more slowly (fewer hours as people have families, etc,) or you could pay less for worse work that gets done more quickly. Well, iOS11 needs to ship on its annual schedule, non-negotiable. And the SVP will really complain if I ask for more money this quarter. So, cheap it is. If a bridge falls down, it's really obvious and people die. If bill…

To be fair, Apple already pays better than most companies.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#403

Post by ryanmarsh »

hackits wrote: post #176
ryanmarsh wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If billions of computers become vulnerable to malicious actors and a few hundred or thousand people suffer dramatic personal damages, well that's a nice and quiet problem which will be quickly forgotten in the 24-hour news cycle. This. I do development coaching and training. I’m totally burned out because my job doesn’t matter. These companies don’t care. They hire me to “increase code quality” but that ends up being…

I think you've nailed it on the head but haven't realized why you've nailed it on the head. `Why? These things have real consequences.` To a business they see software/engineers as a expense. The whole focus as a business is to provide a service that people are will to pay more than it costs to provide said service. Everything else doesn't matter, what does matter for a business is $$$$$ and making sure business does…

> Get out of your cube and go and meet CEO's and CIO and talk to them about their problems and what their goals are.

Jesus Christ listen to yourself. You don’t know anything about me or how I approach things with my clients.

I care about how code affects humans but business don’t have to be responsible for how they hurt people with it.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#404

Post by shostack »

ec109685 wrote: post #280
mabbo wrote: post #93

> “Used responsibly, age-based targeting for employment purposes is an accepted industry practice and for good reason: it helps employers recruit and people of all ages find work,” said Rob Goldman, a Facebook vice president. No, that's... that's literally the opposite of 'helping people of all ages find work'.

Perhaps there are advertisements that work better for some age groups than others? So by targeting, they can deliver the right ad to the right user.

This happens. While I don't advertise for jobs, I do advertise a product, and the reality is that certain demographics perform better against our KPIs, and certain creative resonates better with certain audiences.

What we have to reconcile is how to balance the targeting capability and advantage of using that targeting capability against the legal and ethical considerations.

So for example, there's probably a difference between "let's target all of these age brackets with creative that is most relevant to them" vs. "let's target 18-34 men and explicitly exclude everyone else." The difficult part is there's a lot of gray area there. What if one segment performs horribly? Should you exclude them? What if someone has a bias? Can they just run intentionally bad creative or poorly targeted ads against the demographics they don't want to create a self-fulfilling prophecy?

Things are not black and white, but it is encouraging to see the discussion being had.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#405

Post by hackits »

lotyrin wrote: post #358
user5994461 wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope you got the lesson. Please stop working over the week ends for free. You are devaluing yourself and you are devaluing all the developers who don't want to ruin their week end at work.

I obviously didn't bring to the demonstration that I had volunteered the time, it suited my point to make it seem like it was something easy I could do as an aside... Problem is, they don't care about $ either, they care about what makes them look good, what makes their boss look good, what the sales guys are bugging them about, and it's features and visual polish and never quality or performance. I had to break it d…

I saw your post but didn't reply.

The work you did probably is great and do I think its above your average developer. Somewhere in the the top 10%. Though how you conducted yourself in the face of management was down right petty/folly.

Yes you did the best job in the world. You improved the performance of the serves by % and it did make management of those server's easier. Though you need to think about what you've done in the eyes of management.

Firstly you've modified the server's without permission. You've run tests out-side of work hours that could of impacted the business bottom line. For all I know (its up for debate) but your senior managers had more pressing issues on the table, and having a young code money running around outside office hours is the LAST thing they want to hear.

`It's not a simple as you may think it is.`

Some of the things that come to mind, and honestly I would of pulled you into a office to explain yourself if you're on my team.

1) Did you document all the changes you've made to the server

2) Did you back-up or store any sensitive information off-site during out of office hours

3) Did you modify critical system files that could cause another dependent system to fail

4) What ETA/Service level agreements if any did you break when bringing down the server for maintenance?

5) Did we lose any Security Certification with you modifying the server or changing any of the certificates on the server?

We're software developer, and yes when we see problem's we want to fix it to our best of our ability. Though when you're in a Business there are many thing you may not be aware of. In this situation I would honestly say you're lucky to keep your job! I hope you take it into consideration next time you want to go out-side of your duties.

I don't want to come down harsh on you, but there are times when you see a bad situation and there is nothing you can do about it. You notify the people who're higher than you of the situation and the dangers. It's then up to them to make the decision. After they've made the decision that is it. If the server blows up during the weekend, and they want you to come in and fix it (even when its there fuckup) you just take your hourly rate and x10. So if your hourly rate is $50hr and the server blows up, then your new rate is going to be $500 per hour to come in during the weekend to fix the mess.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#406

Post by omilu »

itronitron wrote: post #400
leggomylibro wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a race to the bottom. You could pay more for better work that gets done more slowly (fewer hours as people have families, etc,) or you could pay less for worse work that gets done more quickly. Well, iOS11 needs to ship on its annual schedule, non-negotiable. And the SVP will really complain if I ask for more money this quarter. So, cheap it is. If a bridge falls down, it's really obvious and people die. If bill…

In my experience, worse work typically gets done a lot more slowly than good work.

This is my experience as well, I've never seen slow result in good.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#407

Post by joe_the_user »

Terr_ wrote: post #327
eric_b wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you, and this is a hard lesson to learn. But I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. Software should really only be measured by the value it provides. If a terribly buggy piece of poorly written code still saves hundreds of man hours a week, it's a win. (Unit tests be damned) If that big ball of mud that's using 20 year old technology still prints a billion dollars a year - that's a win. (Microservic…

> Software should really only be measured by the value it provides. The problem is when the "negative value" is externalized leading to false evaluations. "Oops, so sorry we leaked all your social security numbers. Our bad."

Yes, the "software should really only be measured by the value it provides" attitucde is kind of the key problem we're facing in a whole lot fields.

Because it's not really the value overall the software provides that's being talked about but the instantaneous, immediately visible payoff to a single consumer that software, the people or that consumables are getting judged by. If the software is going to result in trouble over time, if it's going to have security holes that will cost a lot over time, if it's going to commit you to garbage that's updated less and less frequently, etc. None of this calculated. Just as the health costs of sugary drinks don't get calculated, the social costs of poor education don't get calculated, etc.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#408

Post by dpc59 »

CodeMage wrote: post #390
eric_b wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you, and this is a hard lesson to learn. But I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. Software should really only be measured by the value it provides. If a terribly buggy piece of poorly written code still saves hundreds of man hours a week, it's a win. (Unit tests be damned) If that big ball of mud that's using 20 year old technology still prints a billion dollars a year - that's a win. (Microservic…

This is what I call the Mediocre Mercenary Mentality, this idea that "as long as we can make money off of it, it's good enough". This mentality is the reason why sometimes -- but not always! -- my phone won't play music in my car until I restart the _car_. This mentality is why game development companies get away with charging full price for unfinished, bug-ridden games with crippled features and missing content. Thi…

We have an economic system where we reward maximizing short term financial gain. As long as that doesn't change companies will try to sell the crappiest shit they can sell you for the most money.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#409

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Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#410

Post by Hannan »

user5994461 wrote: post #308
nhebb wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A lot of people in their 50's don't need to work. I must travel in lowly circles.

I suppose the distribution is extreme on both sides. Either you accumulated assets from early on and you're golden, or you're still struggling with rent and no pension in sight.

It seems like there's way more on the low side than the high side, at least looking at Table 1 (below) from this PDF from the GAO:

https://www.gao.gov/assets/680/670153.pdf

Edit: below, the table contents

               Households age 55-64 with        Households age 55-64
               no retirement savings            with retirement savings


  Percent of house-        41%                        59%
  holds age 55-64

  Median net worth        $21,000                   $337,000

  Median non-retirement    $1,000                    $25,000
  financial resources

  Median income           $26,000                    $86,000

  Home ownership rates     56%                        87%  

  Percent who own a home   22%                        27%
  that is paid off

  Percent with a           32%                        45%
  defined benefit plan
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