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The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Double-Faced

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31–40 of 73 posts

Re: The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Double-Faced

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A lot of harassment cases involve sexual assault or other crimes, but the police and the courts are often so indifferent Are they? Or are most sexual assault cases incredibly messy and unclear?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15953907

A bankrupt and highly corrupt county does not represent the country as a whole.

I do mean it as an honest question - is there evidence of widespread police indifference to rape?

I'd like to know how often getting a rape kit done leads to a criminal conviction. Does it double the likelihood?

Re: The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Double-Faced

#32

Here's a thought: maybe it should become standard practice for companies to issue a hidden body camera to any employee who requests one. I'm sure there would be lots of issues around this that I haven't thought through yet, but it would certainly solve the evidence problem. Indeed, I would expect the mere existence of the policy to put a major damper on misbehavior.

I really hate that the answer offered to many modern social problem seems to be "more surveillance". I'm not saying it wouldn't help or that we shouldn't do it but like police body cams this is only as effective as the people charged with following through on the consequences. If a company retains control of the camera and wants to bury the evidence they'll still do it.

Re: The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Double-Faced

#33
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Centering employers and schools in programs to reduce sexual harassment has developed as the consensus approach because it is where relatively privileged women (often rich, often white) are most keenly affected by it. That's despite the fact that, even once age-adjusted, students are victimized by rape at a lower rate than non-students. Why not courts? Courts are constitutionally required to have a higher standard of…

Letting schools handle it because the standard of evidence is lower is insane. Rape is a serious crime, and suggesting we should lower the standard of evidence because it's hard to prove is appalling. The one thing more important than protecting potential victims is not punishing innocent people. I know someone that was accused of rape years ago in school. Expelled, lost scholarships, reputation ruined. All from some…

"Letting schools handle it because the standard of evidence is lower is insane. "

Thank you for saying it properly and so concisely.

Re: The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Double-Faced

#34
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... why can't it be handled in court between them? If you're falsely accused, do you want to have to spend $10,000 to defend yourself? If you're harassed, do you want to have to spend $10,000 to accuse the perpetrator? That's why it should be handled in court only as the last resort.

I think the idea is criminal courts, not civil. So prosecution would be free, but expensive to defend yourself.

It is my impression that most harassment does not rise to the level of criminal. (I could be wrong, though.)

Re: The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Double-Faced

#36
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've reached this place in part because formal avenues of responding to harassment are so terrible. A lot of harassment cases involve sexual assault or other crimes, but the police and the courts are often so indifferent or hostile that they cannot even come close to fulfilling the role they should. Improving how the criminal justice system handles such crimes would be a big help, but it's a monumental task.

> A lot of harassment cases involve sexual assault or other crimes, but the police and the courts are often so indifferent Are they? Or are most sexual assault cases incredibly messy and unclear?

My impression from reading these comments is that we should bifurcate sexual assault from sexual harassment.

Both are bad, one is worse.

It may be that the former is civil while the latter is criminal.

Re: The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Double-Faced

#37
post #2

I hope that as time goes on we are increasingly able to see ourselves as all in this together, rather than in a zero-sum game between genders.

While I share your aspiration, let me make an inflammatory question for the purpose of prompting thought. (I would hope readers take this as a neutral statement; since obviously the women entering the workforce see it as a net positive, but it may be a line of questioning to attempt to explain why it's so easy to see it as a gender battle) What if it is zero sum, or at least, approaching that? There are two phenomena…

> [...] sticky total # of jobs. As women further enter the workforce, the mean household income will trend towards double income, and the labor pool will be contested with more applicants, in both cases rendering a male applicant at a substantial disadvantage (comparatively to history).

Isn't this the lump of labor fallacy [1]?

I think the economic theory leads to a different description: As more women enter the workforce, the aggregate income goes up. Some of it is spent and becomes someone else's income. Some of it is saved in a bank which loans it out or invests it. The receiving business then spends it and once again the money becomes someone else's income.

IOW, as more people work, both aggregate demand and aggregate income rise. The economy shifts into a higher gear.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy

Re: The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Double-Faced

#38
> Among the imperatives of #MeToo is that employers, and, indeed, all institutions, must take care to implement orderly processes in which reports of harassment are fairly and impartially investigated, and yield results that inspire confidence—to the benefit of victims as well as the accused.

That's the author's imperative.

#metoo has three imperatives:

1. A smoke signal to communicate across long distances and allege abuse against powerful serial abusers more quickly than those alleged serial abusers can use their power to divide and conquer the allegations.

2. It is a shared statement by victims of sexual abuse (including male victims) that investigations of people who hold power inside institutions have been anything but fair and impartial.

3. It is a day of reckoning for the people who have enabled the serial abusers, in a desperate attempt to create a minimally workable environment where people can try to have careers without having their genitals grabbed, their spirit broken, and their faith in institutions shaken.

The imperative the author erroneously attributes to #metoo is certainly important, and related. But it's different, and it seems like #metoo is merely shoe-horned to make the article more relevant. (Does anyone think the definition of sexual harassment wasn't already being broadened before #metoo?)

It's unfortunate, too, because I'd love to know how both Title IX and Title VII are impacted by students' growing ability and proclivity to accumulate allegations over social media against serial abusers. What does a college's "honor court" or whatever do when it's not victim vs. accused but instead multiple victims across different classes and campus locations vs. one accused?

Re: The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Double-Faced

#39

Putting employers and schools at the center seems like the wrong approach. If there is a victim and a perpetrator, why can't it be handled in court between them? Asking the employer/school to handle it is a recipe for injustice. Their interest is to limit their liability and favor their most useful employees, in that order. Justice is a distant concern.

Reasons why the courts don't handle all these cases include lack of capacity, and because nobody has a right to an education at a particular school or a job with a particular company.

As long as they follow a defined process in each case, private organizations can generally adjudicate disputes internally. Because the limit of what they can do is expell or fire you, the stakes are lower and so is the burden of proof compared to what is needed for a criminal conviction.

Re: The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Double-Faced

#40
post #9

Putting employers and schools at the center seems like the wrong approach. If there is a victim and a perpetrator, why can't it be handled in court between them? Asking the employer/school to handle it is a recipe for injustice. Their interest is to limit their liability and favor their most useful employees, in that order. Justice is a distant concern.

Centering employers and schools in programs to reduce sexual harassment has developed as the consensus approach because it is where relatively privileged women (often rich, often white) are most keenly affected by it. That's despite the fact that, even once age-adjusted, students are victimized by rape at a lower rate than non-students. Why not courts? Courts are constitutionally required to have a higher standard of…

Are you jumping from sexual harassment to rape? One of those is usually a civil matter when courts do see them.
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