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The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Double-Faced

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Re: The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Double-Faced

#21

Post by mannykannot »

existencebox wrote: post #6
rectang wrote: post #2

I hope that as time goes on we are increasingly able to see ourselves as all in this together, rather than in a zero-sum game between genders.

While I share your aspiration, let me make an inflammatory question for the purpose of prompting thought. (I would hope readers take this as a neutral statement; since obviously the women entering the workforce see it as a net positive, but it may be a line of questioning to attempt to explain why it's so easy to see it as a gender battle) What if it is zero sum, or at least, approaching that? There are two phenomena…

> ...in both cases rendering a male applicant at a substantial disadvantage (comparatively to history).

The reduction of inequalities tends to have this sort of effect on those who benefitted from inequality, more or less by definition. I will go along with your stated intention of wanting to provoke thought by saying that I think it is a bogus argument against equality, that ignores the unjustifiable harm done by discrimination. Furthermore, by itself, it does not establish the 'zero sum' part of 'zero sum game'.

BTW, grammatically speaking, the 'it' in the question you pose appears to refer to the 'sexual harassment' of the title, but your comment seems to be about something else altogether.

Re: The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Double-Faced

#22

Post by tptacek »

chroem- wrote: post #10
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... why can't it be handled in court between them? If you're falsely accused, do you want to have to spend $10,000 to defend yourself? If you're harassed, do you want to have to spend $10,000 to accuse the perpetrator? That's why it should be handled in court only as the last resort.

It's much harder to make false accusations in a court of law.

It's much harder to make any accusations in a court of law.

Re: The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Double-Faced

#23

Post by pessimizer »

rectang wrote: post #2

I hope that as time goes on we are increasingly able to see ourselves as all in this together, rather than in a zero-sum game between genders.

I think it's better to realize that we're not all in this together, and instead to sacrifice unearned personal power in order to help the less powerful simply because we think it's just, not because we think that it'll ultimately benefit us in an indirect way.

There's no way to allow power to women without giving up power over women, so control of women's agency and options has to be zero-sum.

Re: The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Double-Faced

#25

Post by sheepmullet »

scarmig wrote: post #14
prepend wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Why not courts? Courts are constitutionally required to have a higher standard of evidence than other institutions. In the usual case where a rape has absolutely occurred, the evidence often amounts to he-said/she-said. That's rarely enough for a conviction. That's understandably deeply dispiriting to anti-rape activists, so they move activism toward places that can afford lower evidentiary standards.” This is a rea…

I was being descriptive of why courts don't effectively adjudicate sexual assault now. I wasn't proposing any particular solution, because it is a hard problem. As a thought experiment, you can imagine a world where courts are required to give instructions to the jury, telling them that they must always treat an alleged victim's testimony as a 100% accurate representation of the incident. That would make most sexual…

> That's why an epidemiological approach--running tests on everything from lights, to educational programs, to banning hard alcohol at school or work sponsored events--seems like the best way out of this hole to me.

The problem is the methods that are most likely to be effective are considered victim blaming.

E.g. Teaching women how to directly and clearly say no.

Or making it socially inappropriate to get blind drunk.

Etc etc.

Re: The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Double-Faced

#26

Post by forgotpassagan »

scarmig wrote: post #9
jeffdavis wrote: post #4

Putting employers and schools at the center seems like the wrong approach. If there is a victim and a perpetrator, why can't it be handled in court between them? Asking the employer/school to handle it is a recipe for injustice. Their interest is to limit their liability and favor their most useful employees, in that order. Justice is a distant concern.

Centering employers and schools in programs to reduce sexual harassment has developed as the consensus approach because it is where relatively privileged women (often rich, often white) are most keenly affected by it. That's despite the fact that, even once age-adjusted, students are victimized by rape at a lower rate than non-students. Why not courts? Courts are constitutionally required to have a higher standard of…

Letting schools handle it because the standard of evidence is lower is insane. Rape is a serious crime, and suggesting we should lower the standard of evidence because it's hard to prove is appalling. The one thing more important than protecting potential victims is not punishing innocent people.

I know someone that was accused of rape years ago in school. Expelled, lost scholarships, reputation ruined. All from some 'arbitration board' with no trial. Thing was, the girl was a frequent liar and had a grudge against him for kindling a relationship then going off to date someone else. The group of friends connected to her, me included, all knew that. This guy was not the shady or violent type at all. He had never even been to court before that.

My friend even claims he was with him that night but since we lived in the same building he had no proof.

None of that mattered, they decided that he 'might be guilty' on her word and proceeded to ruin his life. The exact thing courts were created to prevent, arbitrary justice with no laws and a low standard of evidence.

Maybe we need a simpler solution. Cameras in all public areas of student housing would catch a much larger proportion of rape. But no, that's too simple, we need to change the laws so it's possible to get your life fucked on someone else's word

Re: The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Double-Faced

#27

Post by sheepmullet »

rectang wrote: post #7
readams wrote: post #3

As a society we need to have a much more sober response to this sort of allegation. Immediate career-ending consequences based on a mere accusation are ultimately bad for both accuser and accused, because it raises the cost of making an accusation.

We've reached this place in part because formal avenues of responding to harassment are so terrible. A lot of harassment cases involve sexual assault or other crimes, but the police and the courts are often so indifferent or hostile that they cannot even come close to fulfilling the role they should. Improving how the criminal justice system handles such crimes would be a big help, but it's a monumental task.

> A lot of harassment cases involve sexual assault or other crimes, but the police and the courts are often so indifferent

Are they? Or are most sexual assault cases incredibly messy and unclear?

Re: The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Double-Faced

#28

Post by Avshalom »

sheepmullet wrote: post #27
rectang wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've reached this place in part because formal avenues of responding to harassment are so terrible. A lot of harassment cases involve sexual assault or other crimes, but the police and the courts are often so indifferent or hostile that they cannot even come close to fulfilling the role they should. Improving how the criminal justice system handles such crimes would be a big help, but it's a monumental task.

> A lot of harassment cases involve sexual assault or other crimes, but the police and the courts are often so indifferent Are they? Or are most sexual assault cases incredibly messy and unclear?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15953907

Re: The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Double-Faced

#29

Post by sheepmullet »

pessimizer wrote: post #23
rectang wrote: post #2

I hope that as time goes on we are increasingly able to see ourselves as all in this together, rather than in a zero-sum game between genders.

I think it's better to realize that we're not all in this together, and instead to sacrifice unearned personal power in order to help the less powerful simply because we think it's just, not because we think that it'll ultimately benefit us in an indirect way. There's no way to allow power to women without giving up power over women, so control of women's agency and options has to be zero-sum.

> I think it's better to realize that we're not all in this together

That doesn't make any sense at all.

Men and women are, in western society, naturally aligned and both genders as a whole want what is best for everyone.

Re: The Transformation of Sexual-Harassment Law Will Be Double-Faced

#30

Post by scarmig »

sheepmullet wrote: post #25
scarmig wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was being descriptive of why courts don't effectively adjudicate sexual assault now. I wasn't proposing any particular solution, because it is a hard problem. As a thought experiment, you can imagine a world where courts are required to give instructions to the jury, telling them that they must always treat an alleged victim's testimony as a 100% accurate representation of the incident. That would make most sexual…

> That's why an epidemiological approach--running tests on everything from lights, to educational programs, to banning hard alcohol at school or work sponsored events--seems like the best way out of this hole to me. The problem is the methods that are most likely to be effective are considered victim blaming. E.g. Teaching women how to directly and clearly say no. Or making it socially inappropriate to get blind drun…

I agree. Any effective strategy to reduce rape will involve the participation of victims, but all too often their advocates treat any guidelines as a way of saying "if you didn't get so blackout drunk, you wouldn't have been raped!" And so those types of educational interventions are underused.
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