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Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

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Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#161

Post by lovich »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #120
leggomylibro wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a race to the bottom. You could pay more for better work that gets done more slowly (fewer hours as people have families, etc,) or you could pay less for worse work that gets done more quickly. Well, iOS11 needs to ship on its annual schedule, non-negotiable. And the SVP will really complain if I ask for more money this quarter. So, cheap it is. If a bridge falls down, it's really obvious and people die. If bill…

I'm one of the greyhairs. I won't work the insane hours, but I'll still get more done. How? By knowing what to write and how to write it, so I don't have to fumble around trying things for nearly as long. By not writing the bugs that the 20-somethings write, which means I don't have to take the time to try to fix them. By not creating the shoddy designs that other create, which then have to be fixed. By having an ide…

What you won't do however, is work insane hours to get something done because management changed scope or requirements at the last second but kept the deadline. The flavor of agile development that most shops seem to devolve to is one where management gets the part that they can update requirements based on new information, but deadlines are the same and costs need to constantly be cut.

My personal belief is that our industry tends towards less experienced workers because they put up with shit managers more and can be used to cover for their issues. It's anecodtal only, but I have never heard management decide that their deadlines we're improbable if not impossible when bugs get through. It's always just explained away with platitudes about code quality that suddenly dont matter when that requires more money or more time

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#162

Post by dizzystar »

tmh79 wrote: post #58
avar wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you mainly advertised for employees in certain newspapers you'd get people of a given political leaning. If you advertised on the radio at 6 in the morning you probably wouldn't get anyone under 35. It's not obvious to me why employers should be able to use the implicit filtering traditional media provides, but not the explicit filtering new advertising platforms provide.

The problem is that if facebook decides that I am black, I will never be able to see facebook ads targeted towards white people, I will never know they exist, and even if I want to see them, I will be unable to, thus I am excluded from them. BUT if I am black, I am able to buy a magazine targeted towards white people, peruse the classified ads, and apply to any jobs that interest me. The other issue is that political…

I've worked with racists that didn't want me around, I can assure you that you are better off without them. There's nothing heroic about forcing pigs out of their slop.

Job ads drop a lot of blatant hints about race, age, gender, religion, and so on. Instead of me wasting my time applying to a job I can't get, I'd rather not see them.

Of course, if you are the crusading type, then please go all the way and get the lawyers on the offending company.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#163

Post by anonemouse145 »

combatentropy wrote: post #66

It doesn't make sense to me to discriminate against people with more experience. Can someone explain it to me? I have heard that companies like recent grads because they are (1) more malleable and (2) can be paid less. But neither of those reasons seem to me strong enough. I'm talking completely about the company's own interests. Let's address the first reason: malleability. A recent grad presumably will adopt the co…

It's health care and pensions you silly people. The stereotype (which is massively true in most cases) is that this generation of aging people suck up vast amounts of health care and demand to retire, while young people don't want health care and this generation probably won't get any retirement anyway so no worries.

Do you know how many companies will string along a part time worker, promising full health care after X months, only to fire them if they start demanding benefits? I've seen dozens of cases.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#164

Post by felipelemos »

combatentropy wrote: post #66

It doesn't make sense to me to discriminate against people with more experience. Can someone explain it to me? I have heard that companies like recent grads because they are (1) more malleable and (2) can be paid less. But neither of those reasons seem to me strong enough. I'm talking completely about the company's own interests. Let's address the first reason: malleability. A recent grad presumably will adopt the co…

Not every person in a position of make this kind of decision are thinking in the company's best interest. And their best interest are not always the same as the company.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#165

Post by Clubber »

alasdair_ wrote: post #88
danso wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if this one-way protection exists because otherwise it would be legally tenuous to post job ads seeking a minimum number of years of experience (e.g. 10+ years in professional Python development), which basically by definition discriminate against the very young.

I suspect it's more to do with older people voting more.

Younger people don't get discriminated against in a job market as much?

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#166

Post by paulie_a »

danso wrote: post #39
loeg wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But curiously, not illegal to discriminate against people under 40 on the basis of age (at least, under the same Federal statute)[0]. If these job ads were targeted at the 40+ demographic only, they would be totally ok. It's even been to the Supreme Court[1]: > In the 2004 decision General Dynamics Land Systems, Inc. v. Cline, the U.S. Supreme Court settled a conflict among the lower courts over the viability of so-c…

I wonder if this one-way protection exists because otherwise it would be legally tenuous to post job ads seeking a minimum number of years of experience (e.g. 10+ years in professional Python development), which basically by definition discriminate against the very young.

I remember seeing job ads for 5 years of .net experience the year. Net was released

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#167

Post by rglullis »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #120
leggomylibro wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a race to the bottom. You could pay more for better work that gets done more slowly (fewer hours as people have families, etc,) or you could pay less for worse work that gets done more quickly. Well, iOS11 needs to ship on its annual schedule, non-negotiable. And the SVP will really complain if I ask for more money this quarter. So, cheap it is. If a bridge falls down, it's really obvious and people die. If bill…

I'm one of the greyhairs. I won't work the insane hours, but I'll still get more done. How? By knowing what to write and how to write it, so I don't have to fumble around trying things for nearly as long. By not writing the bugs that the 20-somethings write, which means I don't have to take the time to try to fix them. By not creating the shoddy designs that other create, which then have to be fixed. By having an ide…

I totally agree that measuring productivity by the amount of working hours is ridiculous.

However, it is important to realize that you are not competing with the 20-somethings or the ones that are fresh out of college. You are competing with the ones that have already a good amount of experience (let's say 7-10 years) but are still in the beginning of their careers.

If they are minimally talented, they will probably produce code just as good as yours, yet they will probably (a) work for less money and (b) still be single and (c) more dedicated to work and (d) more tolerant of bullshit asks from the employer. Those are the ones that eventually fill positions as "Sr. Engineer" and crowd out the older ones.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#168

Post by sgustard »

combatentropy wrote: post #66

It doesn't make sense to me to discriminate against people with more experience. Can someone explain it to me? I have heard that companies like recent grads because they are (1) more malleable and (2) can be paid less. But neither of those reasons seem to me strong enough. I'm talking completely about the company's own interests. Let's address the first reason: malleability. A recent grad presumably will adopt the co…

They are discriminating against age, not experience. A 25-year-old with 10 years of experience (elite teen hacker!) is far more attractive than a 50-year-old with 10 years of experience (second-career washout).

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#169

Post by thecompilr »

keltex wrote: post #70
thecompilr wrote: post #63

I think that is perfectly legal, ethical and acceptable. Those companies pay per impression, so they want to maximize the effect of the ad, and reach as many candidates as possible per each $ they pay FB. This is just an ad. No one can stop you from applying to a job directly with the company, irregardless of your age, or any other demographics. Just another sensational headline.

Actually it might be illegal. Read below regarding recruitment. https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/practices/ Recruitment It is also illegal for an employer to recruit new employees in a way that discriminates against them because of their race, color, religion, sex (including gender identity, sexual orientation, and pregnancy), national origin, age (40 or older), disability or genetic information. For example, an employer's…

So the example is: "For example, an employer's reliance on word-of-mouth recruitment by its mostly Hispanic work force may violate the law if the result is that almost all new hires are Hispanic."

In this case the employers probably rely on many sources of candidates, and want to maximize each source. In the end the result is what matters.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#170

Post by walshemj »

cm2187 wrote: post #89

In that spirit should companies even be allowed to visit campuses, and have a graduate recruitment program? After all recruiting straight out of university means recruiting younger people.

Recruiting for experience or lack of experience is allowable but for example a few years back to keep the DHSS happy and to keep receiving benefits I went to an "Apprentice role" at HMGCC at Hanslope Park :-).

The idea was that HR might think I was over qualified but think I might be worth suggesting for other roles. - BTW this was an avowed role so I am not breaking the OS act

Yes that is the one mentioned in the Laundry files

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