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GOP net neutrality bill would allow paid fast lanes and preempt state laws

arstechnica.com

131–140 of 156 posts

Re: GOP net neutrality bill would allow paid fast lanes and preempt state laws

#131
As far I'm concerned, I've never had "net neutrality"...

If I wanted to run a server (web/smtp/etc.) on my consumer level broadband account, I was not allowed to per TOS. For me, real "net neutrality" would've let me do this, but it's never been the case. I have to jump up to "Business" level account.

This situation is what ISP and corporates want... to get you to pay more for a problem you don't have. And them the power to shut you down and force you to higher tier level of "support".

Comcast pushed one step too far against Bittorrent (and was caught), but this is exactly the power that the big boys want and Title II weakens their argument that what they provide is a managed service not a pipe.

Re: GOP net neutrality bill would allow paid fast lanes and preempt state laws

#132

Here [0] is the actual text (i.e. hosted directly by congress.gov) which arstechnica was so thoughtful to not link to. >“(2) may not impair or degrade lawful internet traffic on the basis of internet content, application, or service, or use of a non-harmful device, subject to reasonable network management. Seems like what NN proponents want, isn't it? >“(1) IN GENERAL.—Except as provided in paragraph (2), nothing in…

“(3) SPECIALIZED SERVICES.—The term ‘specialized services’ means services other than broadband internet access service that are offered over the same network as, and that may share network capacity with, broadband internet access service.”. So, fast lanes/bundled packages?

As long as they don't interfere with meaningful broadband internet, I think so. It appears to be aimed primarily at Voip and IPTV services and that type of offering, but it may be possible for them to sell access over a "fast lane" service.

Re: GOP net neutrality bill would allow paid fast lanes and preempt state laws

#133

Can someone explain to me how it's evil for them to charge more money for a "bigger pipe"? Their networks can only service so much traffic; not sure why supply and demand are seen as evil in this case.

Yes, yes... don't explain, just downvote.

The guidelines ask us not to do this, please.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: GOP net neutrality bill would allow paid fast lanes and preempt state laws

#134
post #75

Here [0] is the actual text (i.e. hosted directly by congress.gov) which arstechnica was so thoughtful to not link to. >“(2) may not impair or degrade lawful internet traffic on the basis of internet content, application, or service, or use of a non-harmful device, subject to reasonable network management. Seems like what NN proponents want, isn't it? >“(1) IN GENERAL.—Except as provided in paragraph (2), nothing in…

> "in ways that threaten the meaningful availability of broadband internet access service" "availability" here does not cover performance. Specialized services will likely subtract from the performance of communication with the rest of the internet, but this clause only cares if the impact would be a more thorough loss of connectivity. As long as the ISP continues to offer a neutral tier of service at some level of p…

I think it will depend on how it ends up being interpreted, and maybe we can work with legislators to provide more guidance there in the final Bill.

To me, if I am paying for a 50mpbs Internet access, and I am only getting 25 or 30, because the rest is devoted to "specialized services", then they are threatening the meaningful availability of the service I am paying for.

If however I am paying for 50 mbps, and getting 50-55 mbps, and my ISP is offering an over priced Voip package, I don't think it is interfering in a meaningful way (obviously this ignores latency, which is also an important factor, for simplicity of the example).

Re: GOP net neutrality bill would allow paid fast lanes and preempt state laws

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're welcome to attempt to argue that there's an unavoidable equivalence between QoS as everybody defines it and the other concept you're trying to equate it to, but you have to actually make that argument, not just declare the definition of QoS to have changed because you don't like what it means. QoS still stands for Quality of Service. QoS being a quantity of service is a very well known term, pioneered and po…

> QoS being a quantity of service is a very well known term, pioneered and popularized by Dave Rand/Avi Freedman to describe that QOS establishes which packets are to be dropped on the floor first. So you're still trying to re-define the literal text of what the "QoS" initialism expands to, and now you're also trying to narrow the scope of QoS as defined by everybody else. There's more to QoS than just deciding which…

Ok, lets do basics.

You have 1Mbit/sec worth of traffic and the max connection speed is 10Mbit/sec. Packet loss is at 0% and latency is speed of light + speed of forwarding.

Do you need QoS in this case?

Re: GOP net neutrality bill would allow paid fast lanes and preempt state laws

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, it wasn't fraud then? Disclaimer: I am not registered with any political party. I find their political machines to be in bad taste. The GP is probably right, they would probably have impeached Clinton already if she had Russian ties like Trump and his cronies appear to have. And if the Dems controlled the congress, he would probably be gone already also. Seems like some equivalence there...I'm not sure how that i…

I'm not saying it wasn't fraud. I'm saying that the argument has no place here when we're talking about a GOP-lead attempt to effectively destroy the internet as we know it. Any attempt to shift the debate towards 'both parties are bad' is the definition of Whataboutism and an attempt to avoid the actual topic at hand.

> Any attempt to shift the debate towards 'both parties are bad' is the definition of Whataboutism

I disagree. It's not deflection to look at your alternatives and comment on the fact that none are suitable.

Re: GOP net neutrality bill would allow paid fast lanes and preempt state laws

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ISP doesn't have costs on each side, the other side is the peer's equipment. And you're just intentionally setting money on fire. You can get more than 16 ports into five rack units, which would result in less amortization on the chassis and less colo per port. And 5U worth of colo is not $1000/month almost anywhere, but that was >75% of your total cost. Which is still using the numbers where equipment only lasts…

You are moving the goal posts. I put my estimate in the same context you put your estimate in (no over subscription, 100% continuous usage etc). The ISP doesn't pay both sides, but someone pays somewhere. So, if we are talking about the "cost of peering" it doesn't serve to talk about it from only one side. You can get more than 16 ports in the 5u unit, so rent is probably under-amortized but not by the two order of…

> The ISP doesn't pay both sides, but someone pays somewhere. So, if we are talking about the "cost of peering" it doesn't serve to talk about it from only one side.

But we're talking about the cost of peering paid by the ISP, because the ISP doesn't have to cover costs paid by somebody else and no one else is objecting to paying their part of it.

> You can get more than 16 ports in the 5u unit, so rent is probably under-amortized but not by the two order of magnitudes that would make up the difference between my estimate and your original.

Juniper MX240 supports 80 10GbE ports in 5U. Cisco's product search is lame but I expect they have something similar too.

> Peering is not a major cost for ISPs because ISPs don't have a lot of peers. As more services want direct peering relationships, there are some overhead costs which go up to manage the explosion of peering relationships.

That isn't necessarily true either. Only the major transit providers and CDNs like Level 3 and Akamai and the major players like Google that are so big they're effectively their own transit provider/CDN have any interesting peering.

All the smaller players get connected through one of the transit providers, because Joe's Website only wants to hook up from wherever Joe's servers are, not at every carrier hotel in the world like Google does. So they pay a transit provider to handle that and the ISP only has to deal with the transit provider.

The problem comes when the ISPs want to charge major transit providers monopoly rents for peering (which they would have to pass on), or refuse to upgrade the links to them when they're saturated in order to force their big customers (like Netflix at one point) to pay monopoly rents for peering directly.

> My initial objection was that you over-simplified.

It's supposed to be a simplification. The point isn't to make a full accounting, it's to compare orders of magnitude. Even using your numbers with unrealistically conservative assumptions about everything, they're still a single digit percentage of the typical customer's bill.

Re: GOP net neutrality bill would allow paid fast lanes and preempt state laws

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying it wasn't fraud. I'm saying that the argument has no place here when we're talking about a GOP-lead attempt to effectively destroy the internet as we know it. Any attempt to shift the debate towards 'both parties are bad' is the definition of Whataboutism and an attempt to avoid the actual topic at hand.

> Any attempt to shift the debate towards 'both parties are bad' is the definition of Whataboutism I disagree. It's not deflection to look at your alternatives and comment on the fact that none are suitable.

Are you saying that Democrats unanimously voted in favor of the Republican tax bill and are also anticipated to for the Republican fake Net Neutrality bill?

Re: GOP net neutrality bill would allow paid fast lanes and preempt state laws

#139
post #14

Correct me if I’m wrong, but haven’t we always had paid fast lanes available? At least for VOIP this stuff hasn’t seemed very uncommon.

Not in the sense of: Dear Netflix, if you want to service our customers you need to pay us a $10 million dollars a year. Dear Customer with 30mbps service, Netflix takes a lot of bandwidth and we're just a poor multi-billion dollar ISP and can't afford to shoulder the burden. But if you pay an additional $9.99 a month we can probably scrape up the bandwidth to let you watch Netflix in HD ($29.99 for 4k) Also see our…

How would this actually work in the somewhat competitive and very low-margin ISP market?

What you’re describing just sounds like suicide.

Re: GOP net neutrality bill would allow paid fast lanes and preempt state laws

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the devil is in the details, and the FCC seems to have the power to write those details The bill explicitly prohibits the FCC from writing rules fleshing out the details, and restricts the FCC to adjudicating specific cases (such adjudications are subject individually to review by the courts, so inasmuch as someone is empowered to define general standards, it's the course through case law, not the FCC, whose adjudi…

The bill only explicitly forbids them from expanding the obligations. It does specify that the FCC has authority to adjudicate complaints. I don't know if that prevents them from publishing guidelines ahead of time, or if that will evolve from adjudication. And, as you point out, the courts will ultimately have oversight over the adjudication- so I suppose in the end, the Supreme Court may end up writing the rules...…

> The bill only explicitly forbids them from expanding the obligations

Any rule which restricted anything not restricted by the bare law would expand obligations, and is thereby prohibited.

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