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GOP net neutrality bill would allow paid fast lanes and preempt state laws

arstechnica.com

91–100 of 156 posts

Re: GOP net neutrality bill would allow paid fast lanes and preempt state laws

#91
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If Netflix did not have PNIs to Comcast, Comcast internet would have been unusable for everyone. Only under the assumption that Comcast makes no attempt to do their job properly and uphold their contractual obligations by implementing reasonable QoS measures and upgrading their capacity. You can't point to Comcast's extortionist refusal to upgrade their links to the outside world and say that it's Netflix's fault;…

QoS does not stand for Quality of Service. It stands for Quantity of Service. It also seems that you believe that QoS works by magic and not by dropping packets on the floor that meet certain criteria. Those criterias are gasp protocol and destination. It is no different from you putting a rate limits your API based on the token used to authenticate a client or a route used. But hey, yes, NN is telling me I should at…

> QoS does not stand for Quality of Service. It stands for Quantity of Service.

Fuck you. You aren't even trying to have a reasonable conversation, are you?

You're welcome to attempt to argue that there's an unavoidable equivalence between QoS as everybody defines it and the other concept you're trying to equate it to, but you have to actually make that argument, not just declare the definition of QoS to have changed because you don't like what it means. QoS still stands for Quality of Service.

> But hey, yes, NN is telling me I should at best use RED to do QoS as everything else requires lookng at protocol and destination

You can use CoDel without violating any principles of net neutrality. You can even use FQ-CoDel without violating the principles of net neutrality, because it only looks at port numbers to determine which packets are related to each other; each port is subjected to the same set of rules and no port is preferred over another. Net neutrality doesn't require you to ignore the past 20+ years of research into QoS.

It may help your political cause to regard QoS as being strictly a zero-sum game, but that doesn't make it true.

> There's not a single network that can provide this kind of capacity even at 10Mbit/sec, not to mention at 50Mbit/sec or 150Mbit/sec or Gigabit/sec.

> The only way to deal with this is PNIs between those that originate massive amounts of traffic and the networks that consume massive amounts of traffic.

The technical requirements of having large, reasonably direct links between big producers and big consumers does not say anything about whether Netflix has to negotiate with Comcast and Verizon directly, or whether they can outsource those concerns to Level 3. That's purely in the domain of business shenanigans.

Re: GOP net neutrality bill would allow paid fast lanes and preempt state laws

#92

Can someone explain to me how it's evil for them to charge more money for a "bigger pipe"? Their networks can only service so much traffic; not sure why supply and demand are seen as evil in this case.

The issue is who they are trying to charge. Supply and demand is great...when it is between the right parties.

To keep things simple, imagine an ISP with only one plan: 1 TB of data/month at 100 Mb/second for $50/month.

Note that at 100 Mb/second it would only take 22 hours to use all your allotted data for the month. Because of this they do not have to build their network out to where it can handle everyone doing 100 Mb/second all the time. In fact, building it out to where it could do 100 Mb/second all the time would be prohibitively expensive.

So they just build their network out to where most of the time, most people get their 100 Mb/second, but during some peak times there may be congestion and things may slow down.

Imagine now that it is during one of those congested times. I am trying to watch a video lecture at a free MOOC. You are trying to watch, say, Netflix. Bob is trying to download a video game he just bought. Alice is trying to do a major OS and XCode update on her Mac.

You, me, Bob, and Alice all bought the same service from our ISP at the same price, so it seems pretty reasonable to expect that we would be treated the same. We should share the effects of congestion equally.

If the ISP wants to bring supply and demand into this, they could offer service level agreements for an extra cost. You pay a certain amount per month and they guarantee, say, 90% of rated speed even during congestion. I think this would be allowed under net neutrality.

What they want to do with paid prioritization, though, so go to the MOOC I'm trying to use, Netflix, the place where Bob got the video game, and Apple and say "Hey...if you pay us $X per month, when our network is congested we will prioritize the traffic for our customers of yours".

There are two bad things with this:

1. Suppose that Netflix buys paid prioritization, and nobody else does. That means that during times of congestion you get good service, and the service for the rest of us gets even worse. Even though we are paying our ISP for the exact same service, you are now getting preferential treatment because a company that has no relationship with the ISP other than they and the ISP have some common customers was able to pay to give you preferential service and degrade ours.

2. It may discourage the ISP from building out more network capacity as demand grows. They may instead focus on getting paid prioritization agreements from the most popular internet services. That could mean that those who use smaller services that even if they wanted to could not afford to make prioritization deals with every ISP, might be doomed to perpetual terrible performance, as the ISPs only need to build out their networks enough to provide good service to those who use services that have paid prioritization deals with the ISP.

Essentially ISPs want to reverse their role. Right now, their role is to sell to us (the end users) access to the internet. They want to turn that around, and make their role be to sell the internet access to us. And they still want to charge us while doing that...basically they want to be the pimps of the net, with us as the prostitutes and the websites as the johns.

Re: GOP net neutrality bill would allow paid fast lanes and preempt state laws

#94
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because the Republican party is traditionally associated with states' rights doesn't mean they should always have to give precedence to states. The sway of ideologies should be balanced with a willingness to judge issues on their own merit. Allowing states to enact their own regulations in this case would be incredibly burdensome to internet businesses looking to operate in multiple states (so all of them), ther…

It's always burdensome to have different laws in different states. Different sales tax in different states is a major PITA for example. I don't think this is different from other laws.

Which is why criticism of Republicans for this on the basis of the law not meshing with one of their supposed foundational ideologies is stupid.

We should not be ridiculing people for not being ideologues. We live in a time when we need people to not be ideologues.

Re: GOP net neutrality bill would allow paid fast lanes and preempt state laws

#95

Here [0] is the actual text (i.e. hosted directly by congress.gov) which arstechnica was so thoughtful to not link to. >“(2) may not impair or degrade lawful internet traffic on the basis of internet content, application, or service, or use of a non-harmful device, subject to reasonable network management. Seems like what NN proponents want, isn't it? >“(1) IN GENERAL.—Except as provided in paragraph (2), nothing in…

“(3) SPECIALIZED SERVICES.—The term ‘specialized services’ means services other than broadband internet access service that are offered over the same network as, and that may share network capacity with, broadband internet access service.”.

So, fast lanes/bundled packages?

Re: GOP net neutrality bill would allow paid fast lanes and preempt state laws

#96
post #13

It's funny how they always vehemently advocate for states rights unless these states rights get in the way of their agenda.

“States Rights”, since just before the Civil War, has consistently been a political code for protecting discrimination (including, originally, demanding other states be bound to treat escaped slaves as property not people through federal law.)

It has never meant what the words taken together would naively seem to mean.

Re: GOP net neutrality bill would allow paid fast lanes and preempt state laws

#97
post #53
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Explanation: you have not even done a bare minimum of attention or research on a pivotal internet-freedom issue that has been slow-boiling over the past 3 months and you are still weighing in as if your opinion is informed (let alone intellectually significant) in any respect whatsoever. It's not like it's a real deep and multi-faceted issue or anything here, you just didn't bother to do even a bare minimum of resear…

This is r/Iamverysmart material. Wow.

OP disagrees with the concept of natural monopolies because he's deep down the libertarian rabbit-hole, but instead of just coming out and saying it he phrases it as a question and expects people to explain the basics of the concept to him so he can obtusely disagree at every step. It doesn't really do us any good to have a 101-level discussion of microecon and market failures on every single topic.

It just happens that this is a topic where you can't even pretend there are two sides to it, and it's one that has been discussed to death over the past couple months, so the bad faith is pretty transparent.

(the next stage of sealioning: "woah how dare you ascribe bad faith to my totally legitimate attempts to grok this issue, I totally would have agreed with you if you had just responded nicely but maybe there is something to this whole internet-fast-lanes thing after all!")

Re: GOP net neutrality bill would allow paid fast lanes and preempt state laws

#98
post #50

From now, until the day I die, I will never vote or donate to the republican party again. This last year was the straw that broke the camel's back. This isn't the party of small businesses and tax cuts any more. This bill is a handout to large ISPs at the expense of the economy, and the tax bill last night raises my taxes so people making 100k+ more than me can see a tax cut. I'm done with them.

“We’re the party of small businesses” has been a guise for decades.

Re: GOP net neutrality bill would allow paid fast lanes and preempt state laws

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the last mile is (sometimes) truly bandwidth limited. But the trunk lines aren't. Now they just get to extort money from us or artificially throttle us . Worse, they'll likely (as they have everywhere else) extort money for websites they have no connection to (like Facebook or Twitter) just because they can. Like an entrepreneurial thug standing outside a club and extracting an extra fee to let folks in. Or p…

Exactly opposite. Last line is not bandwidth limited - FTTH exists. FIOS and even comcast do that. 100 people at 1Gbit/sec to the edge are 100Gbit/sec in the core to content providers. [Edit: Downvoting 2+2 being 4 is stupid] 1 Gbit/sec is easily deliverable at the edge, even if it costs 5 thousand dollars to get it connected. 1 Gbit/sec of non-oversubscribed IP transit is at least $500/mo. A building with 100 apartm…

Sure the last mile is arguable - not for me, as I live in the country and DSL is what I get. But we could invest and do better there too.

Still its nothing compared to the extortion racket, holding websites hostage .

Re: GOP net neutrality bill would allow paid fast lanes and preempt state laws

#100
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're replying to a comment about the current state of existing infrastructure by talking about the theoretical possibility of new infrastructure that could be deployed with today's technology, but largely isn't being deployed.

That's something that you should bring up with your local government . It is your local government that is blocking roll outs of FTTH. Even at 10Mbit/sec congestion will be at the core. Comcast currently claims to have 22.3 million internet customers. At 10 Mbit/sec it means 223.3 MILLION megabit per second that needed to be handed off to transit. It is not possible.

> That's something that you should bring up with your local government. It is your local government that is blocking roll outs of FTTH.

That's definitely not true in my specific case, and probably isn't true all that often in the general case. Deploying FTTH to existing paying customers who already have halfway decent infrastructure doesn't have a very compelling short-term return on investment even when the local government is doing everything they can to encourage it.

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