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Philosophy Needs a New Definition

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Re: Philosophy Needs a New Definition

#51
post #25

People tend to forget that PhD (when translated into english) means "Doctor of Philosophy in..." While getting my bachelor's in math, I often heard peers explain the following: Math ==> Physics ==> Chemistry ==> Biology ...with the intended implication that all science rests on math. Here's the diagram I'd come back with. It wasn't exactly met with enthusiasm: Philosophy ==> Math ==> Physics ==> Chemistry ==> Biology

So what? In the UK we have a bunch of old farts who get made Knights of the Realm. Doesn't make them great fighters. It's just a name.

Philosophy today is a joke, it's all the bits which real, disciplined, thinkers can't be bothered with yet. Philosophy is a massive con, basically armchair thinkers who offer no practical, testable, recreatable, advice. And I did an actual Philosophy degree!

The only bastion of Philosophy had left was moral philosophy and even that's becoming irrelevant now neuroscience and social science are becoming grown up sciences and giving us cold, hard facts of why our brain finds things moral or not, and what moral rules actually work for communities.

Meanwhile, the moral philosophers all wander off and have a good old argument about if being altruistic is really being altruistic because it makes you feel good and what is the meaning of the word 'know'. So edgy, so sexy, so completely pointless.

Re: Philosophy Needs a New Definition

#52
post #25

People tend to forget that PhD (when translated into english) means "Doctor of Philosophy in..." While getting my bachelor's in math, I often heard peers explain the following: Math ==> Physics ==> Chemistry ==> Biology ...with the intended implication that all science rests on math. Here's the diagram I'd come back with. It wasn't exactly met with enthusiasm: Philosophy ==> Math ==> Physics ==> Chemistry ==> Biology

So what? In the UK we have a bunch of old farts who get made Knights of the Realm. Doesn't make them great fighters. It's just a name. Philosophy today is a joke, it's all the bits which real, disciplined, thinkers can't be bothered with yet. Philosophy is a massive con, basically armchair thinkers who offer no practical, testable, recreatable, advice. And I did an actual Philosophy degree! The only bastion of Philos…

> what is the meaning of the word 'know'.

that's the quintessential question, the holy grail.

> so completely pointless.

* pointfree

Re: Philosophy Needs a New Definition

#53

Think of a triangle. At one point is "philosopher", at another "asshole", and the third "idiot". Consider the edge between "philosopher" and "idiot" to be "innocent love". Consider the edge between "philosopher" and "asshole" to be "pure knowledge". The total idiot has all the love and none of the knowledge. The total asshole has all of the knowledge and none of the love. The total philosopher has all the love and al…

I don’t think you should write off anti philosophers like this, although I don’t know wat you know about them.

Re: Philosophy Needs a New Definition

#54
post #43
post #8

From the headline, I thought that the article would be some materialist Sam Harris fanboy talking about how analytic philosophy is the only real philosophy and how science can tell us objective truths about morality. Count me surprised! This writer has great taste. Philosophy and poetry are closely related. Transmission of knowledge is very difficult. People don't learn well through textbooks and diagrams; they learn…

Paraconsistent logics are demonstrably weaker, so there is that...

But weaker logic does not imply weaker philosophy.

Re: Philosophy Needs a New Definition

#55
post #25

People tend to forget that PhD (when translated into english) means "Doctor of Philosophy in..." While getting my bachelor's in math, I often heard peers explain the following: Math ==> Physics ==> Chemistry ==> Biology ...with the intended implication that all science rests on math. Here's the diagram I'd come back with. It wasn't exactly met with enthusiasm: Philosophy ==> Math ==> Physics ==> Chemistry ==> Biology

There's a clear distinction. Mathematics is axiomatic, anything that is proven in mathematics is also true in physics, provided it's in the correct context. This can be extended to the other sciences as well, anything that is true in a model of physics is also true in chemistry or biology as well, again, provided the right context.

This doesn't hold true for philosophy, since philosophy has no requirement of logical or empirical consistency which mathematics and the sciences do.

Re: Philosophy Needs a New Definition

#56
post #25

People tend to forget that PhD (when translated into english) means "Doctor of Philosophy in..." While getting my bachelor's in math, I often heard peers explain the following: Math ==> Physics ==> Chemistry ==> Biology ...with the intended implication that all science rests on math. Here's the diagram I'd come back with. It wasn't exactly met with enthusiasm: Philosophy ==> Math ==> Physics ==> Chemistry ==> Biology

So what? In the UK we have a bunch of old farts who get made Knights of the Realm. Doesn't make them great fighters. It's just a name. Philosophy today is a joke, it's all the bits which real, disciplined, thinkers can't be bothered with yet. Philosophy is a massive con, basically armchair thinkers who offer no practical, testable, recreatable, advice. And I did an actual Philosophy degree! The only bastion of Philos…

> So what? In the UK we have a bunch of old farts who get made Knights of the Realm. Doesn't make them great fighters. It's just a name.

blatant non-sequitur

> Philosophy today is a joke, it's all the bits which real, disciplined, thinkers can't be bothered with yet.

a recent study shows that “Physics, Mathematical Sciences and Philosophy are among the majors with the highest IQs in America, according to research.” https://thetab.com/us/2017/04/10/which-major-has-highest-iq-... – third on the list between the mathematical sciences and materials engineering. would you agree that IQ is a proxy for 'real disciplined thinking'? if you do then your assertion about philosophy is false. if you don't then you would need to explain why philosophers uniquely exhibit high IQ but fail to be 'real disciplined thinkers'.

> Philosophy is a massive con, basically armchair thinkers who offer no practical, testable, recreatable, advice. And I did an actual Philosophy degree!

the philosophical method is conceptual analysis. this can indeed be done in an armchair. it can also be done through dialogue. it can be ventured into via literature and art as the article demonstrates. it can even be performed by computational devices. as one manipulates concepts one makes claims about their interrelations and their relations to the world. these claims are amenable to analysis. it's not a massive con, it's just extremely difficult while at the same time deceptively easy because it looks like all philosophers do is "think about a bunch of stuff". philosophy is as much about introspection to see where our biases lie. think of your mind like a weighing scales, if that scales is off the measurement will be incorrect. part of philosophy is the removal of prejudices and biases from your mind and being able to spot the flaws and fallacies of others. this takes a long time. not everyone is able to do it well, some cannot do it at all. because of relentlessly increasing specialisation philosophy plays a more mediating role, it also tends towards abstraction – thus, not everyone is cut out for it. it's not to everyone's taste. just because it's not for you there's no need to trash the entire discipline. i never liked accounting (for instance) but i'd never turn around then and say it was a joke or a con.

> The only bastion of Philosophy had left was moral philosophy and even that's becoming irrelevant now neuroscience and social science are becoming grown up sciences and giving us cold, hard facts of why our brain finds things moral or not, and what moral rules actually work for communities.

bullshit. every branch of philosophy is thriving. i would argue that it is actually to the detriment of philosophy that moral philosophy and its various ethical branches (business ethics, environmental ethics, bioethics, territorial rights, human rights, and so on) secure funding over other areas through a perception that they're more relevant. they're not.

> Meanwhile, the moral philosophers all wander off and have a good old argument about if being altruistic is really being altruistic because it makes you feel good

kindergarten stuff – i suggest reading the works of the late Derek Parfit, for one, to see what actually concerns the contemporary moral philosopher

> and what is the meaning of the word 'know'.

wrong, that's epistemology (different branch to ethics)

> So edgy, so sexy, so completely pointless.

not an argument – you would think you might have learned that somewhere during your philosophy degree

Re: Philosophy Needs a New Definition

#57
I always had a simple way to think about philosophy.

There is a world of difference between knowing about philosophy (the history of it and what various philosophers "actually" meant) and then to be a philosopher (a thinker).

The person who knows a lot about philosophy is often academic. They can tell you the difference between Frege and Wittgenstein and have a million ways to interpret Nietcshe.

In my experience though, the best philosophers come from all parts of life and are what I would call careful thinkers. They can be well read or not it's the way they deal with the subject they discuss that makes them great.

So sure give philosophy a new definition in academia to fight over and debate if you'd like, it won't change much for those who know how to think.

Re: Philosophy Needs a New Definition

#58
post #9
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The incentives in academic philosophy aren't really around finding truth, but rather getting published so you can keep your tenure. There are a lot of academic philosophers that have crawled so far up their own asses they don't even know the way out any more. But they don't represent all of philosophy, even if they get a lot of attention. Philosophy broadly defined is as vital and important as ever, though. I can't i…

>The incentives in academic philosophy aren't really around finding truth, but rather getting published so you can keep your tenure. Does that distinguish philosophy from the sciences or other areas of academia?

Other areas of sciences tend to have some "customer" outside themselves, where the sciences are applied. This also tends to be emphasized in the criteria for grant proposals in many domains nowadays.

IMHO the appropriate position of philosophy in modern academia would be as "metascience", i.e., their writings should be clearly useful to scientists across other sciences, they should be informative and relevant for people doing their own science outside of pure philosophy. IMHO it currently mostly isn't.

Re: Philosophy Needs a New Definition

#59
post #16

Profound philosophy needs to take into account messiness, but cannot be messy itself in its use of concepts, reasoning etc. By being strict one can realise the limits of the very cognitive tools we use. Godel and Quine come to mind. The concepts are limiting, but that's all we have in philosophy. The article mentions some exceptions, but it's a completely different playground. Rumi, Lao Tzu and Buddha were using thei…

>The article mentions some exceptions, but it's a completely different playground. Rumi, Lao Tzu and Buddha were using their teachings as a practical instructions, rather than theories aiming to prove anything about the world.

Is philosophy about proof or understanding? Math and the sciences are there to look for proof. Remember that Science used to be called Natural Philosophy, which has now become a philosophical enterprise based on conjecture and empirical reproducible observation.

We need philosophers through their teachings to make sense of all that messiness and let those branches of philosophy such as the sciences gradually work out how it works in ways that can be confirmed and proven.

Re: Philosophy Needs a New Definition

#60
post #25

People tend to forget that PhD (when translated into english) means "Doctor of Philosophy in..." While getting my bachelor's in math, I often heard peers explain the following: Math ==> Physics ==> Chemistry ==> Biology ...with the intended implication that all science rests on math. Here's the diagram I'd come back with. It wasn't exactly met with enthusiasm: Philosophy ==> Math ==> Physics ==> Chemistry ==> Biology

Applied chemistry is biology, applied physics is chemistry, and applied math is physics. Applied philosophy is not math. Another way to look at it is asking why in biology leads you to chemistry, asking why in chemistry leads you to physics, and asking why in physics leads you to math. Asking why in math does not lead you to philosophy.

Thinking about logic is a discipline of philosophy.

Applied logic is math.

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