What Needs to Happen Before Electric Cars Take Over the World • Hacker News Board

Re: What Needs to Happen Before Electric Cars Take Over the World

#391

Post by ghaff » Tue, Dec 19, 2017, 7:28 PM UTC

erikpukinskis wrote: post #381

ghaff wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People scraping together a few thousand dollars to buy a beater ICE so they can get to work are not doing TCO analyses. It's also a pretty open question what the cost of EVs looks like long-term. Even if we limit the discussion to new vehicles, you can buy a new ICE econobox for close to $15K which could last you 10 years and 150K miles fairly easily. I sure wouldn't bet on an electric car doing that on its original…

> People scraping together a few thousand dollars to buy a beater ICE so they can get to work are not doing TCO analyses Is that something you’ve studied, or are you just guessing? You don’t think there are people with low incomes who budget aggressively?

The reasons why it can be expensive to be poor have been studied and written about rather extensively. e.g. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/lauren-greutman/why-being-poo...

I do think many people with lower incomes budget aggressively. However, they may simply not be in a situation that they can optimize for a longer time horizon.

Re: What Needs to Happen Before Electric Cars Take Over the World

#392

Post by schiffern » Tue, Dec 19, 2017, 7:32 PM UTC

civilitty wrote: post #311

vvanders wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and standard chargers can be installed anywhere you can put a clothes dryer. You only need 120kW charging if you're going to be road-tripping. In the 2+ years I've owned an EV I've never had an issue, including doing 300mi+ in a single day about once a week. Heck, when I bought my current house I didn't need to do anything since the previous owner already had a NEMA 14-50 outlet for their welder.

Yeah it's all so simple until you realize that means every house running a clothes dryer all at the same time between 5pm and whatever time in the evening everyone is done charging. Los Angeles and parts of the Bay Area have had nearly annual brownouts for the last 20 years just from air conditioners during heat waves. How in the world do you expect that aging power grid (in the fifth/sixth largest economy no less...…

>running a clothes dryer all at the same time

Fortunately those "clothes dryers" are already connected to the internet, and have sophisticated power electronics hooked to the grid that can detect voltage sag and phase lag. Connected to a central server, each car (or stationary battery, for that matter) becomes BOTH a sensor that can monitor grid health AND a remote-control load that can be dialed up and down (so long as the car gets a full charge before 7am, or whenever the user chooses).

The internet allows entire neighborhoods of EVs to be controlled at once, so that the substation is at 100% power and no more, and so the distribution/transmission lines are at 100% power and no more.

Is that a hard control problem? Sure. BUT it's easier than overbuilding the electric grid by 2-3x (which is, after all, the largest machine ever built[1]). And given the very large opportunity cost, there's a lot of incentive to solve it.

[1] https://www.smithsonianmag.com/videos/category/innovation/th...

Re: What Needs to Happen Before Electric Cars Take Over the World

#393

Post by ecpottinger » Tue, Dec 19, 2017, 7:33 PM UTC

pixl97 wrote: post #161

Tepix wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you know you will be away for 3 hours, why not use a slow charger instead of the limited fast chargers (that are probably more expensive as well)?

Why does everything good in the world get ruined? Because some people are just dicks. Unless there are active fines for holding up the queue in fast chargers, selfish people will make it worse for everyone.

There are charges, after your car is fully charge if you leave it on the charger for more than 10 minutes you start to be charged for the the extra time you leave you car there.

Re: What Needs to Happen Before Electric Cars Take Over the World

#394

Post by squarefoot » Tue, Dec 19, 2017, 7:33 PM UTC

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #208

squarefoot wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I'll probably feel slightly nostalgic about the sound and smell of fuel-burning cars someday" I don't know about the smell, but once people realize how dangerous is a car you can't hear coming, they will start adding some sound, and what's better than a traditional car sound? The sound will be easily faked using samples from well known engines played according to the current speed by transducers under the car. There…

All EVs actually are currently required to have a noise added, unfortunately. My Volt makes a weird whirring that you can't hear inside the cabin, but can outside. The Leaf has an odd noise, and even has a backup 'beep beep' like you'd normally hear on tractors or bobcats, etc (tho quieter).

Good, didn't know that. Time to dust off that old analog synthesizer and make some modern car sounds!

Re: What Needs to Happen Before Electric Cars Take Over the World

#395

Post by mturmon » Tue, Dec 19, 2017, 7:48 PM UTC

enraged_camel wrote: post #289

jdietrich wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electric cars have the potential to be a key part of the solution to load management on a fully renewable grid. The vast majority of people will usually charge overnight and don't need to regularly charge at peak times. Through intelligent charger management, you can distribute the load of charging across the entire off-peak period. The UX for this can be fairly straightforward - by default you charge at the cheapest…

I was talking to a professor of electrical engineering who performs research on the electric grid. She said that while in theory it is possible to configure cars to charge themselves when electricity is cheapest, currently residential utility plans don’t adjust pricing based on time of day. Your electricity bill’s tiers are based on your total consumption. Edit: lol, I get downvoted for relaying what a professor of E…

When I lived in New York State in the mid 1990s, there was time-variable electricity pricing. Being a grad student, I exploited it to do my dishes and clothes after peak hours to save money. Eventually I put my water heater on a timer. I think the rate differential was significant (order of $.07/kWh vs. $.11/kWh).

This is still the case, see: http://www.nyseg.com/YourHome/pricingandrates/daynighrate.ht...

Perhaps you misinterpreted the scope of applicability of what the professor said.

Re: What Needs to Happen Before Electric Cars Take Over the World

#396

Post by Florin_Andrei » Tue, Dec 19, 2017, 7:54 PM UTC

GiorgioG wrote: post #390

The issue of energy portability is not an insignificant one IMO. I can carry 5 gallons (or 100-150 miles worth of range) of fuel fairly easily. Not so much with an electric vehicle. What happens when I run out of juice on the side of the road? I don't care how many times the car warns me; that it shouldn't happen, etc. People still manage to run out of gas today. With an electric vehicle already hampered by half the…

A car should be able to charge another car. There needs to be some kind of standard here.

Or else small portable batteries need to become more common.

Or I could envision a service where, if you run out of electrons, you tap a button and a drone is dispatched with a portable battery to your location. Or maybe the car itself could place the call automatically.

Re: What Needs to Happen Before Electric Cars Take Over the World

#397

Post by twothamendment » Tue, Dec 19, 2017, 7:58 PM UTC

GiorgioG wrote: post #390

The issue of energy portability is not an insignificant one IMO. I can carry 5 gallons (or 100-150 miles worth of range) of fuel fairly easily. Not so much with an electric vehicle. What happens when I run out of juice on the side of the road? I don't care how many times the car warns me; that it shouldn't happen, etc. People still manage to run out of gas today. With an electric vehicle already hampered by half the…

In addition to fuel being portable, storage is important too. I can store extra fuel. When the power is out and the gas station can't pump - I don't care, I have a backup. I can put it in my truck, generator, etc.

Re: What Needs to Happen Before Electric Cars Take Over the World

#398

Post by stuffedBelly » Tue, Dec 19, 2017, 8:00 PM UTC

GiorgioG wrote: post #390

The issue of energy portability is not an insignificant one IMO. I can carry 5 gallons (or 100-150 miles worth of range) of fuel fairly easily. Not so much with an electric vehicle. What happens when I run out of juice on the side of the road? I don't care how many times the car warns me; that it shouldn't happen, etc. People still manage to run out of gas today. With an electric vehicle already hampered by half the…

This may sound like a joke but I think it might work - would carrying a pedal/hand generator resolve emergency like this, at least for a little while?

Re: What Needs to Happen Before Electric Cars Take Over the World

#399

Post by twothamendment » Tue, Dec 19, 2017, 8:01 PM UTC

Florin_Andrei wrote: post #396

GiorgioG wrote: post #390

The issue of energy portability is not an insignificant one IMO. I can carry 5 gallons (or 100-150 miles worth of range) of fuel fairly easily. Not so much with an electric vehicle. What happens when I run out of juice on the side of the road? I don't care how many times the car warns me; that it shouldn't happen, etc. People still manage to run out of gas today. With an electric vehicle already hampered by half the…

A car should be able to charge another car. There needs to be some kind of standard here. Or else small portable batteries need to become more common. Or I could envision a service where, if you run out of electrons, you tap a button and a drone is dispatched with a portable battery to your location. Or maybe the car itself could place the call automatically.

How big would a battery have to be to get a dead EV off the side of the road and 25 miles to a charging station? Can a drone fly a 25 or 50 pound battery? What would the range on the drone be?

I'm guessing a tow truck with the ability to charge a car is more likely.

Re: What Needs to Happen Before Electric Cars Take Over the World

#400

Post by twothamendment » Tue, Dec 19, 2017, 8:04 PM UTC

IndrekR wrote: post #63

chrisper wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>continuous, smooth acceleration becomes the norm, This was achieved with CVT (Continous Variable Transmission). I did not like to drive one, but it already exists. Also I currently have a car with 7 gear automatic transmission and the acceleration is pretty smooth. >lurchy, awkward automatic transmissions fade into distant memory. Again, newer automatic transmission aren't bad anymore.

I drive a hybrid with CVT. After getting used to its smoothness driving with a "normal gearbox" feels really awkward.

I have a CVT in a Subaru and they decided to make it feel like a "normal" car by pretending to shift. I wish I could disable that. At lower RPMs it doesn't play that game.