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The Google-Facebook Duopoly Threatens Diversity of Thought

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Re: The Google-Facebook Duopoly Threatens Diversity of Thought

#51
post #12

The Justice Dept has a very strict definition of monopoly [0] -- it requires both 1) the ability to raise prices profitably above that in a competitive market, and 2) anticompetitive conduct. That means that Google receiving 90% of all searches wouldn't automatically imply market power or anti-competitive conduct, and I can't see how Google or Facebook can raise their prices higher than a "competitive market" if they…

How is comcast not a monopoly? That was my only choice when I lived chicago.

That would be a different kind of "monopoly". The government (usually local) granted rights to a single provider in an agreement that they install connections to a minimum user base or geographical area. What would happen otherwise is the providers would only install access in areas that are profitable and not extend further out into the more rural area.

What needs to happen is these granted rights should be re-evaluated from time to time.

Re: The Google-Facebook Duopoly Threatens Diversity of Thought

#52
post #8

Which makes me ask the question: do you, gentle Hacker News reader, really want diversity of opinion and why? Do you have unpopular opinions and if so, would you get fired or ostracized for sharing them? Are you practicing crimethink? After all, the only people actually working on alternatives to Google and Facebook are the alt-right who have been de-platformed. Gab.ai is so de-platformed that google doesn't even let…

You're making a good point, and I would suspect that it's valid in general.

I've definitely had unpopular opinions, and even when I don't, my questioning of the basis of a given argument is often misinterpreted as holding the opposite(and objectionable) belief. This isn't because I knowingly hold some dogma, but that I care about whether something is true or not. Even though I do think global warming is a real issue, I'm careful to point out whether or not a piece of evidence is specious because too often I've been classified as right wing or anti-science.

What I used to value about the internet was how I could have no-holds-barred debates with people from around the world and not be worried about my life being destroyed. From about the age of 11, I visited lots of anarchist and free-speech forums, sites about drug use, politics, etc., and ended up learning quite a bit having to argue with both total fools and those more savvy than I was. Even that young, what I valued was not the "criminal" aspect of these channels but the ability for myself and others to express their true selves, or at least the personae that people portrayed.

That's the internet I miss, but it's also the internet that took some skill to use and was far less profitable than it is today. Now that everyone is on it, the people want a level of safety that is dubious and stifles what originally made the web great. Joe Hacker inherently saw the value of libre speech, but the average person either doesn't understand that value or is afraid of being judged for holding that belief.

The internet isn't really different from anything else that we censor as a society. I don't believe that the same people who value freedom of speech on the internet would keep around entities like the FCC that quite obviously do not exist to protect the public from anything. The average person either doesn't understand what the FCC is for, or they would shrug and say that it's not such a bad thing.

I suspect that HN has a greater than average population of individuals who want an end to censorship online, but I would still agree with narrator in that most of us don't actually want a diversity of opinion. The reality is that most people are self-interested, and that usually doesn't mean that they're interested in hearing different opinions. They want the freedom to express their own opinions, but are still appalled when someone holds a radically different one. People are not very principled and they will move the goal posts out of convenience.

We may never see the old internet ever again.

Re: The Google-Facebook Duopoly Threatens Diversity of Thought

#53

The solution really is a revitalization of antitrust policy. The reason markets work is because participants in them are bound to a 'race to the bottom' with many other participants doing the same thing. When companies aren't forced to race to the bottom against each other, the conditions of authoritarianism rise. Authoritarian structures don't have to necessarily come from government - monopolies, oligopolies and im…

Network effects are inherent to networks; you can't regulate away the very thing that makes them valuable to people (well, i dont see how at least)

Re: The Google-Facebook Duopoly Threatens Diversity of Thought

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Remember kids, any criticism of Google censorship is right wing nazi propaganda. This message brought to you by Google."

The internet culture shifted in 2007, with the release of the iPhone. Libertarian conversation died with the living room desktop.

I don't know what my comment has to do with libertarianism, or why it's being down voted. I was simply mocking the blatant corporate bootlicking, and the branding of all criticism as evil right wing attacks.

Re: The Google-Facebook Duopoly Threatens Diversity of Thought

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both right and left wing propaganda is strong and coordinated these days. I can't say anything that doesn't toe the line with either side and not have them look at me like I'm an asshole. I've been called both a socialist welfare state supporter and a reactionary corporate feudalist. Which is it folks. The division is worse than it ever was in my lifetime.

Welcome to identity politics and the over saturation of a politically correct ruling class run amok. If people weren't so fucking reactionary to everything they read, see, hear and experience, we wouldn't be in this mess and rational discourse might have a chance. As it stands, people are so easily offended, there isn't any space for an actual discussion. As someone who considers myself an Independent, I spend hours…

I pretty much agree, I'm lucky not to be american, but that what it seems like to me. At least in the Bush area it seemed like the US was arguing about things, now one sides seems to have gone beyond logic and discovered trolling while the other is only mostly arguing with itself about how to argue.

> I spend hours every day reading articles on both sides

I have pretty much stopped reading any of these things. You can pretty much read the title and 99% of the time you pretty much know where the argument is gone go. Just stick to books and papers that are about a focused subject. That will isolate you and you will disagree with everyone because people don't actually know or care what happened in the economic crisis of 1893 or any other historical event and they also don't care.

Re: The Google-Facebook Duopoly Threatens Diversity of Thought

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their product is the advertising platform, so the price-raising should be evaluated there. Their consumer "products" eg newsfeed, mail, messenger, search etc are just mechanisms for demographic gathering for the purposes of advertisement sales, or for direct advertisement delivery.

CPAs have been going down since forever. So yep, no monopoly here, plenty of competition. People who talk about FB or Google "monopoly" don't understand what a monopoly is.

Fully agree. Heck Bing is one less character and nobody is stopped from using. Chrome takes work to download versus MS browser come preinstalled.

If you do not want Android buy an iPhone. Gmail, YouTube, Google photos and pretty much every other Google thing works fine on the iPhone.

Do not want a Google home buy an Echo. We really should not be penalizing a company for creating a better product and winning in the marketplace, imo.

Google gave away Android source code and Amazon used to create the echo. Google gave away Chrommium and companies use. Google gave away Borg with K8s and TF and all their papers including map reduce and others.

Re: The Google-Facebook Duopoly Threatens Diversity of Thought

#57
post #6

Apparently having a large market share in advertising also means that you somehow own communication. Yes, a lot of people use Facebook and Google but that doesn't mean that there aren't 50 bajillion means of communication. Network effects are strong but ultimately they don't prevent you from communicating with anybody. The person on the other end of the line who has a strong preference for their chosen form of commun…

This. Completely agree. Google out competed established search engines when it released. AOL & Yahoo were entrenched.

History flies in the face of what this article is trying to say. Tech giants can be out competed with new and better technology. It's that simple even though it's very hard.

Google and Facebook are not the 'monopolies' we should be focused on.

Verizon and ATT own the last mile and can literally shut down traffic to a site instantly at the network level! Talk about monopolistic power. Can't exactly out compete broadband unless you figure out how to network with muons or other subatomic particles.

Re: The Google-Facebook Duopoly Threatens Diversity of Thought

#58

It's very concerning that there is so much influence concentrated within such few hands. However I have to ask - would the WSJ would be so concerned if Google or Facebook were conservative leaning outlets? Normally the WSJ defends this kind of duopoly kind of thing - if either Google or Facebook had some sort of right side leaning the WSJ would be preaching to us about the genius of capitalism and the wisdom of the m…

Can you provide an example of WSJ defending duopolies, or this sort of thing?

Re: The Google-Facebook Duopoly Threatens Diversity of Thought

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The internet culture shifted in 2007, with the release of the iPhone. Libertarian conversation died with the living room desktop.

I don't know what my comment has to do with libertarianism, or why it's being down voted. I was simply mocking the blatant corporate bootlicking, and the branding of all criticism as evil right wing attacks.

Sitting down to use the internet in 1995-2007 took a certain kind of personality. It was an act that required isolating yourself for long periods of time.

"Normies" are very unconcerned, easily distracted, and quickly trusting of Big Apps.

Re: The Google-Facebook Duopoly Threatens Diversity of Thought

#60
The wsj worrying about "diversity of thought"? Is this the same company that spread "fake news" about pewdiepie in order to shut him down?

How about we worry about diversity of thought in the news in an ever consolidating and controlled propaganda industry? Or is that a non-starter since wsj sold itself to news corp 10 years ago?

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