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WhatsApp told to stop sharing user data with Facebook by French authorities

reuters.com

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Re: WhatsApp told to stop sharing user data with Facebook by French authorities

#161

Post by bearcobra »

RestlessMind wrote: post #117
endisukaj wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not much they can do against tech behemoths based in the US though. They can stop them from gathering EU citizen data, or at least approve laws that try to stop them but who knows what is really happening behind the scenes.

I believe if EU's laws are widely publicized and proved to be useful in EU countries, then there can be enough political pressure in the US. A tangential, but political relevant point: tech companies are in a particularly bad spot in the US because they are hated by both sides; republicans hate them because they are perceived as having liberal bias while democrats hate them because of tax avoidance, worsening inequal…

I get the feeling that the perception of tech companies as being evil/hated is overblown. Link to a tweet with one survey that supports my claim. https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/942468649390100481

Re: WhatsApp told to stop sharing user data with Facebook by French authorities

#162

Post by kenoph »

DannyBee wrote: post #146
theptip wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the article says, under GDPR (coming in mid-2018) they will be able to fine 4% of global revenue, or 20m EUR, whichever is larger [1]. I'm not certain that this particular case is covered by the GDPR, but if it is, then that will compel action. If Facebook declines to pay these fines, then presumably their execs would be arrested if they ever travelled anywhere in the EU. While FB can claim that it “is only subjec…

Or you'll see FB/others decide the EU isn't worth it over time. It's interesting how many people here believe that there is no other possibility other than "we get what we want to happen". Your faith is, IMHO, misplaced. There are many cases in history where other companies decided it wasn't worth the cost of doing business in certain countries. Or they just successfully coopted the governments!

Honestly, I believe that the market is big enough to make it worth it anyway. But if they decide to leave, that could be a win-win. "Worst" case scenario, some EU-based company replace them and becomes a tech giant. I mean, look at Yandex or VK in Russia.

Facebook (the website) is not rocket science. As for Google, replacing it could take time, but in the long run it's good to destroy their monopoly in Europe.

Re: WhatsApp told to stop sharing user data with Facebook by French authorities

#163

Post by JepZ »

cJ0th wrote: post #62
teekert wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm taking baby steps towards Signal. I think 10% now of my regular "apping" is on Signal. There is still some on Telegram as well.

My advice would be Xmpp with OMEMO encryption. On mobile, you can get the Conversations App for Android via Fdroid (no google play!), for the iPhone there is Chatsecure and on the Desktop you can use Gajim. The advantage over Signal would be that 1.) you don't have to share your telephone number and 2.) you don't rely on a single service provider/accounts are decentralized (there are various services for free and pai…

Actually, I use XMPP+OMEMO for 90% of my messaging and Conversations (Android App) is superb. Sadly Chatsecure seems to be a little more demanding in terms of server support (requires some odd Push Notification extension) and the desktop clients need some more love too (I use Gajim and Pidgin so far).

Overall, I feel much better than to use some data hungry WhatsApp or some walled garden Signal app. Yes, it is a little more complicated to setup, but in the end it works as good as the others (e.g. in terms of energy consumption) and you don't have to worry about some company having different plans than you.

PS: While I sympathize with the decentralized nature of Matrix I still like the XMPP clients better.

Re: WhatsApp told to stop sharing user data with Facebook by French authorities

#164

Post by geofft »

mikeokner wrote: post #33
soziawa wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could but you'd have to tell the users in the terms of service. If you tell them that you won't query the database and then go on and decide to do so anyways you'd get sued. With WhatsApp having a quasi monopoly on messaging it's difficult for the to change the terms of service without giving their opponents the argument that the change was forced.

Sure, that makes sense to me. But this seems more like "the company said it wouldn't allow anyone else to query the database" before I bought it. Now that I'm owner, do I still count as "anyone else?" I'd argue not. Edit: that's from a US perspective. Sounds like France (& the EU) put additional restrictions on how personal data may be used even after it's voluntarily provided.

> Sure, that makes sense to me. But this seems more like "the company said it wouldn't allow anyone else to query the database" before I bought it. Now that I'm owner, do I still count as "anyone else?" I'd argue not.

I don't think the change of ownership matters. If I say that I won't allow anyone else to query the database, that statement isn't about restricting others from wandering into my offices and pulling up a Python prompt. What I'm really saying is that I commit to not querying the data with the purpose of sending it to others. Maybe that means I commit to not building something to query it for them; maybe it means I commit to not running a mysqld that accepts connections from them; maybe it means I commit to not doing a database dump and sending it, but in all cases, I'm the one not doing a thing.

So, the fact that you "own" the data doesn't mean you have the right to use it how you want - because if you could in fact use it how you want, you could send it to anyone you want. And if you transfer it, e.g., by selling your company, you don't transfer rights that you never had.

Re: WhatsApp told to stop sharing user data with Facebook by French authorities

#165

Post by nickik »

RestlessMind wrote: post #99

EU is one of my best hopes when it comes to privacy and really wish they start going after tech behemoths. I have given up on US authorities doing anything to reign them in. And policies in other significant countries (eg. China) would be even worse for user privacy.

The reality is that while the EU does not like US tech companies to have user data (of Europeans), they themselves are quite happy to get and exchange that data with US and other agencies, including most importantly secret services. The exact data they don't want Whatsapp to share with Facebook is very likely in the exchanges between secret services.

I could go into a long list about the privacy restricting laws passed all over Europe, specially Britain and France. Germany is somewhat better but they are essentially fighting a flood and most politician think its far easier to go with the flow and significant measures have been adopted even there.

I am far more afraid of being arrested because I violated some EU regulation about 'hacking tools'(yes, those are iligal in Germany, whatever it means), 'drugs' or any of many other freedom restricting or plain nonsensical polices in the EU.

If I can pick who can have all my data I would pick google, facebook and so an before I would ever, ever pick the EU (or most states). Mostly because google and facebook have little interest or care about my political views, my consumption habits or who I am sleeping with and who I associate with, unless it is to offer me deals to get these things easier.

While I know for sure that I am indexed on many list from the government about a potential problem because I was at Snowden and other political lectures and events that explained what happened when the state became angry at you. There are no lecture by people who hide out in Russia unable to see their family becase of google evil data collection.

The EU on the other hand seem very interested in pretty much every single aspect on my live and and am actively in violation to lots of these 'laws' already, indeed most people are. Not to mention that they have a continent wide security service, special forces, many spy agencies and large armies.

A further point relates to the problem that once states gain such control of how any company deals with data it is not gone be long before all companies are legally required to give standard access to all this data (a view already expressed by many, many politicians, police union chiefs and burocrates on al level all over Europe).

So I'm sorry I can't join your positivism about good guy Europe finally going after evil US cooperation (who have given me free services for pretty much my whole live, not to mention lots of Open Source code that I literally use every day).

Re: WhatsApp told to stop sharing user data with Facebook by French authorities

#166

Post by bostik »

shakna wrote: post #101
gboudrias wrote: post #2

> “The only way to refuse the data transfer for “business intelligence” purpose is to uninstall the application,” the CNIL said in a statement. I mean, Facebook et al are a nightmare, but doesn't this statement apply to almost every app? Nevertheless, I'm sure Facebook is pretty annoyed right now, seeing as their main business goal seems to be "hoard all the data".

I believe with France's current laws, and the incoming EU GDPR, you must provide the opt-out as the same manner as the agreement was made. If that means you clicked an "I agree" button, then you must be able to easily find a page where you click, "I no longer agree".

More importantly, with GDPR you are not allowed to deny customers service even if they choose not to share their data.

Re: WhatsApp told to stop sharing user data with Facebook by French authorities

#167

Post by antihero »

cJ0th wrote: post #62
teekert wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm taking baby steps towards Signal. I think 10% now of my regular "apping" is on Signal. There is still some on Telegram as well.

My advice would be Xmpp with OMEMO encryption. On mobile, you can get the Conversations App for Android via Fdroid (no google play!), for the iPhone there is Chatsecure and on the Desktop you can use Gajim. The advantage over Signal would be that 1.) you don't have to share your telephone number and 2.) you don't rely on a single service provider/accounts are decentralized (there are various services for free and pai…

Because we're talking about the people we know day to day, not a bunch of people who are interested in installing obscure apps. Last time I tried chatsecure a few months ago it was buggy and difficult to find a server to sign up to that supported the bizarrely difficult to navigate XMPP extensions that allow you maybe sort of know if it's all working properly.

So yes maybe for ultra secure comms with specific parties, but useless as a day-to-day solution.

Re: WhatsApp told to stop sharing user data with Facebook by French authorities

#168

Post by JepZ »

Jarwain wrote: post #88
cJ0th wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My advice would be Xmpp with OMEMO encryption. On mobile, you can get the Conversations App for Android via Fdroid (no google play!), for the iPhone there is Chatsecure and on the Desktop you can use Gajim. The advantage over Signal would be that 1.) you don't have to share your telephone number and 2.) you don't rely on a single service provider/accounts are decentralized (there are various services for free and pai…

If memory serves, XMPP is pretty battery intensive on mobile because one has to maintain a consistent connection to the server to receive messages

Well, if the server and the client support the required extensions the battery impact is very low:

https://conversations.im/#optimizations

Those extensions are pretty standard stuff nowadays. Here you can find an explanation with a few more details (section "Battery drain"):

https://gultsch.de/xmpp_2016.html

Re: WhatsApp told to stop sharing user data with Facebook by French authorities

#169

Post by Fnoord »

RestlessMind wrote: post #99

EU is one of my best hopes when it comes to privacy and really wish they start going after tech behemoths. I have given up on US authorities doing anything to reign them in. And policies in other significant countries (eg. China) would be even worse for user privacy.

The US could be very well in on it. What if US companies could use the NSA data for business benefits? And that happened. The EU needs to stop seeing the US as its ally, and protect itself adequately. GDPR is one step in the right direction.

Re: WhatsApp told to stop sharing user data with Facebook by French authorities

#170

Post by jyrkesh »

geofft wrote: post #159
Jdam wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just protectionism at its finest. You better don’t think that would happen if FB was a french company. The industrial-governmental-complex is stronger in France than anywhere else in the western world.

That seems reasonable - as long as the US maintains its protectionist stance of not letting people born in France compete for jobs on a level playing field with people born in the US, why should France allow employers in the US to compete on a level playing field with employers in France? (Are you counting protectionist immigration laws as part of countries' industrial-governmental complexes?)

I could be reading it wrong, but your post came across as overly combative and an appeal to whataboutism.

I'd say both are protectionist and both are wrong. My interpretation of your parent was simply that it is protectionist of France to be doing this (and I'd argue that makes it as wrong as the American protectionism that you brought up).

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