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WhatsApp told to stop sharing user data with Facebook by French authorities

reuters.com

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Re: WhatsApp told to stop sharing user data with Facebook by French authorities

#91

Post by mbesto »

drdrey wrote: post #10
lakechfoma wrote: post #4

Does anyone know what they do share besides phone number? And what could they share? I know end to end message encryption is a thing, but can the app still supply your messages or analysis of them to FB?

They can presumably not share the content of the messages, but they could share the metadata around them. Who you are connected to, how often you contact them, what time of day, potentially some location information, how long you spend in the app...

This: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/your-phone-metadata-is-...

Facebook, for example, can probably establish who my wife is, even if I don't explicitly put her in my profile, and who effectively are my affinity groups (friends/family/etc).

Re: WhatsApp told to stop sharing user data with Facebook by French authorities

#93

Post by robertocatini »

pdpi wrote: post #83
djsumdog wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did WhatsApp charge anything? I thought for contracts you needed some kind of actual dollar amount (even $1) for it to be binding? Is that very US-law specific or am I way off here?

For a contract to be binding, you need consideration[1] from both parties. A contract where you give me something for nothing is not binding, we both need to be giving each other _something_. That something need not be money: A contract saying that you agree to give me your house if I give you my car would qualify. Google and Facebook extract enough value from targeting ads based on the personal information we agree…

As the page you linked explains, in Civil Law the consideration is not required.

Re: WhatsApp told to stop sharing user data with Facebook by French authorities

#94

Post by WJW »

laurent123456 wrote: post #53
rihegher wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well here this is the CNIL threatening to fine Facebook. The CNIL does not have much power though, and the worst that may happens for Facebook will be to be fine a few thousands euros.

Since 2004 they can fine up to 3 000 000 € [0]. Still not much for Facebook but better than a few thousands. More importantly, assuming the CNIL has a case, I assume Facebook has an obligation to comply (I guess they can't just pay the fine and keep doing whatever they were doing). [0] https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do?cidTexte=JORFT...

New EU privacy law has some rather more potent fines though: for intentionally violating some of the articles in the new regulations, the fine is 20m€ or 4% of revenue, whichever is the higher number.

Re: WhatsApp told to stop sharing user data with Facebook by French authorities

#95

Post by mikehotel »

Brakenshire wrote: post #26
teekert wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm taking baby steps towards Signal. I think 10% now of my regular "apping" is on Signal. There is still some on Telegram as well.

I've been wondering about alternatives, do you find Signal to work well? Can non-technical people install and use it without problems?

They have made big improvements in their iOS app.

One resolved issue that impacted usability was they used to send pics from the selector screen without confirmation, and this resulted in some funny/awkward situations in group chats.

Winning people's confidence back is not easy to do, but they have done a remarkable job.

Re: WhatsApp told to stop sharing user data with Facebook by French authorities

#96

Post by shakna »

mikeokner wrote: post #33
soziawa wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could but you'd have to tell the users in the terms of service. If you tell them that you won't query the database and then go on and decide to do so anyways you'd get sued. With WhatsApp having a quasi monopoly on messaging it's difficult for the to change the terms of service without giving their opponents the argument that the change was forced.

Sure, that makes sense to me. But this seems more like "the company said it wouldn't allow anyone else to query the database" before I bought it. Now that I'm owner, do I still count as "anyone else?" I'd argue not. Edit: that's from a US perspective. Sounds like France (& the EU) put additional restrictions on how personal data may be used even after it's voluntarily provided.

> on how personal data may be used even after it's voluntarily provided.

That feels wrong. The personal data was provided under a contract. Now, you can pretend you're Vader and change your deal, but people can still attack you for changing the contract to terms they have not agreed on.

And so far in court, long lengthy legalese Terms & Conditions haven't always held up to scrutiny, and nor has any contract that states "we can change these terms at any time". [0]

Just buying the database doesn't let you do anything with it - you just bought the responsibility of fulfilling the contract.

[0] One example: https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/ca2/11...

Re: WhatsApp told to stop sharing user data with Facebook by French authorities

#97

Post by teekert »

paimpozhil wrote: post #70
mancerayder wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love Signal but the reason why WhatsApp is so appealing is that there's a desktop client. I hate having to rely on my phone for texting people.

Telegram is even better, has a nice desktop client which doesn't really depend on the mobile . Whatsapp's web client is just an UI to the mobile app meaning you also need to have phone connected to internet always for it to work. Telegram is much more responsive compared to the Whatsapp.

Yes but: Not standard End-to-End and the E2E encryption that is in there is not as well tested. Also, the mobile phone-less use is great but it requires plain text messages to be stored on Telegram servers. I think Signal's (and WA's) solution is pretty elegant. For non-phone related use I'd go for Wire https://wire.com/en/ encryption wise.

Re: WhatsApp told to stop sharing user data with Facebook by French authorities

#98

Post by teekert »

cJ0th wrote: post #62
teekert wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm taking baby steps towards Signal. I think 10% now of my regular "apping" is on Signal. There is still some on Telegram as well.

My advice would be Xmpp with OMEMO encryption. On mobile, you can get the Conversations App for Android via Fdroid (no google play!), for the iPhone there is Chatsecure and on the Desktop you can use Gajim. The advantage over Signal would be that 1.) you don't have to share your telephone number and 2.) you don't rely on a single service provider/accounts are decentralized (there are various services for free and pai…

I like your solution, but indeed, this is not feasible if your want all your friends and your grand ma to leave WA :)

I'd also suggest Riot/Matrix along those lines.

Re: WhatsApp told to stop sharing user data with Facebook by French authorities

#99

Post by RestlessMind »

EU is one of my best hopes when it comes to privacy and really wish they start going after tech behemoths. I have given up on US authorities doing anything to reign them in. And policies in other significant countries (eg. China) would be even worse for user privacy.

Re: WhatsApp told to stop sharing user data with Facebook by French authorities

#100

Post by cmurf »

beberlei wrote: post #61
mikeokner wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there legal precedent for "sharing" when the only entity you're providing the data to is your owner? Presumably if I bought WhatsApp, I would legally be allowed to query some database for someone's phone number if I so chose because I now own the database.

Per European Privacy Law, you only own the data for the specific use-cases that you asked it for in your terms of use / privacy policy. I agreed to that when signing up. If you change that in the future, you have to ask for my consent again. If I deny, then you cannot use my data for your new use-case.

Is the revision opt in (express permission required, by default you do not agree)? Or is it opt out (by default you agree, unless you expressly refuse)?

In the U.S. terms of service are usually the latter. You'll get a notification of revised terms, and you can refuse. But as a consequence every company I'm aware of will then terminate service. Examples include insurance, banks, and (perhaps infamously) iTunes which had more revisions than the average number of needles on a pine tree.

Yes you can send them a note saying you do not agree to their new terms, and they'll send you a note your account is closed.

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