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What Needs to Happen Before Electric Cars Take Over the World

nytimes.com

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Re: What Needs to Happen Before Electric Cars Take Over the World

#111

Post by igravious »

bigbugbag wrote: post #39
analognoise wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Batteries aren't cheap.

Are batteries part of the powertrain though ?

If they are, they oughn't be. Batteries are like a really really expensive fuel tank. The fuel happens to be way cheaper. That's the trade-off. The article fails to mention this, which is odd.

ICE: powertrain + fuel tank ~$6,000 (or whatever your local currency) …

EV: powertrain + fuel tank ~$16,000 …

That makes more sense, but then you'd need – cost of fuel per mile/kilometre

ICE: 10¢ a mile

EV: 1¢ a mile (or sometimes free?)

That's why people are buying electric vehicles already. Okay, maybe it's partly environmental, but surely it is also because they figure that running costs are lower over the lifetime so they might break even overall. As battery prices drop, electric vehicles only become even more economical in the long run.

Re: What Needs to Happen Before Electric Cars Take Over the World

#112

Post by kalleboo »

eloisant wrote: post #61
jmnicolas wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what I never understood : why don't they create cars where the battery is removable and when you go to a "gas" station there's a machine that just change your empty battery for a full one. In fact I thought about patenting the idea 10 years ago but I didn't have the know-how.

Because batteries get old and need to be replaced, so you'd have to pay for the aging of your battery when you get the new one

You could solve that by subscribing to your battery rather than outright owning it.

Re: What Needs to Happen Before Electric Cars Take Over the World

#113

Post by f_allwein »

How about: We need to shift from individual car ownership to more public transport? Sure it will be great if cars turn electric, but that does not solve issues like crowded streets etc. This would be partly addressed if cars were self driving and shared, i.e. would spend less time standing around unused. Nevertheless, I assume (=don't have data) that public transport would be much more efficient than electric cars in terms of energy/ resource/ space usage.

Maybe in the future, the line between private and public transport will be more blurry, i.e. you take a shared, self driving car to the railway station etc.

Re: What Needs to Happen Before Electric Cars Take Over the World

#114

Post by kalleboo »

ianai wrote: post #22
benjaminl wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost all of that is the battery. Even though batteries are coming down in price, they are still very expensive. For example GM’s list price for the Bolt battery is $15,734. Now this is the replacement cost Bolt owners pay for a new battery not the actual cost, but it gives an indication of their cost. https://electrek.co/2017/06/12/gm-bolt-ev-battery-pack-price...

How much power does the electric motor need? -edit- found it https://www.quora.com/How-much-power-is-required-by-the-moto... 80kw to accelerate and 1 kw to maintain. -edit 2- how come no ones put 3 solar panels on top of an EV? Three of the following could output 1 kw and fit in the space available. http://www.solarwholesale.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Sil... Seems like an obvious for electric semis where there’s…

Priuses have a solar panel on the roof, but all it has the capacity to power is a fan to keep the cabin cool when you park in the sun on a hot day...

Re: What Needs to Happen Before Electric Cars Take Over the World

#115

Post by Shinchy »

mikepavone wrote: post #72
paol wrote: post #33

These articles keep omitting a pretty big barrier to adoption: street parking. (Maybe it's a function of US being suburb-centric? But at least the New York Times ought to know better.) One of 2 things needs to happen, either charging technology improves to the point where you can charge at a gas station in a span of time comparable to refueling a conventional car, or all street parking spots need to be fitted with ch…

This gets mentioned a lot, but I think the point is really over stated. First, there's a huge amount of room for growth in electric vehicle adoption even if we assume that EVs are a non-starter for people who park on the street at night. The problem is worth solving, but we're no where near the point in which it's the main obstacle to further adoption. Second, cars that are being used will generally spend a fair bit…

Let me put it this way, I looked at buying an Electric Car but I live in a house with no driveway so there is no way I can ever own one. I would never risk the idea of driving to a supermarket hoping there is a free charging port for my car, just in case there isn't any free - it's not like I can just queue up the car. It's a huge fundamental hurdle and one that until solved will stop me from ever buying an Electric Vehicle.

Re: What Needs to Happen Before Electric Cars Take Over the World

#116

Post by masklinn »

ianai wrote: post #22
benjaminl wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost all of that is the battery. Even though batteries are coming down in price, they are still very expensive. For example GM’s list price for the Bolt battery is $15,734. Now this is the replacement cost Bolt owners pay for a new battery not the actual cost, but it gives an indication of their cost. https://electrek.co/2017/06/12/gm-bolt-ev-battery-pack-price...

How much power does the electric motor need? -edit- found it https://www.quora.com/How-much-power-is-required-by-the-moto... 80kw to accelerate and 1 kw to maintain. -edit 2- how come no ones put 3 solar panels on top of an EV? Three of the following could output 1 kw and fit in the space available. http://www.solarwholesale.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Sil... Seems like an obvious for electric semis where there’s…

These numbers don't pass the sniff test, the World Solar Challenge wouldn't be a thing if it were that easy.

Re: What Needs to Happen Before Electric Cars Take Over the World

#117

Post by Dylan16807 »

ianai wrote: post #64
mtgx wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Model S has about 500 kW, Model 3 300 kW, Bolt 150 kW, Renault Zoe like 50 kW. As for the other question, the solar panels provide way too little charge for the given area. When EVs are all about to have 100+ kWh batteries soon, it doesn't make sense to have a solar roof top: https://www.engineering.com/ElectronicsDesign/ElectronicsDes...

The numbers in that article seem chosen as low bars to prove a point. There are panels with much greater efficiency/density and lower cost. If it doesn’t make sense today it will in the future. If a company could move their trucks for “free” for 5 hours/day they would.

> There are panels with much greater efficiency/density

Not by a huge amount. You could get 3x that with just about the best solar panel, but they didn't appear to factor in the losses from having the panels facing up-ish and not toward the sun, so you also lose another big chunk of power.

> If it doesn’t make sense today it will in the future.

Doubt it. Solar panels can only be so efficient.

> If a company could move their trucks for “free” for 5 hours/day they would.

Sure, but we're looking at more like fifteen minutes.

Put the solar panels on the ground. They'll give you more "free" range, with less effort.

Re: What Needs to Happen Before Electric Cars Take Over the World

#119

Post by unabst »

paol wrote: post #33

These articles keep omitting a pretty big barrier to adoption: street parking. (Maybe it's a function of US being suburb-centric? But at least the New York Times ought to know better.) One of 2 things needs to happen, either charging technology improves to the point where you can charge at a gas station in a span of time comparable to refueling a conventional car, or all street parking spots need to be fitted with ch…

You're still talking today. By the time electric takes over, there is a good chance self driving will be here also.

That's when this becomes possible: Your car will drop you off, go get charged, and come back if you want it to, or just park off-site and pick you up in the morning.

But now think about zip cars and Uber/Lyft. The price of point to point transit will fall from human wage level to robot wage level.

Imagine those services at a fraction of the cost. And more rides would be available also without the need for paid drivers. They'd also deliver mail and food.

Of course... all this was also omitted by the article. But this does appear to be the consensus regarding where this is all headed.

Re: What Needs to Happen Before Electric Cars Take Over the World

#120

Post by KozmoNau7 »

squarefoot wrote: post #54
_greim_ wrote: post #15

> Drivers will have to shed their attachment to the sound, smell and feel of gas-powered engines. I for one will not feel the least bit sad when continuous, smooth acceleration becomes the norm, and lurchy, awkward automatic transmissions fade into distant memory. I'll probably feel slightly nostalgic about the sound and smell of fuel-burning cars someday, but it won't inform my buying choices in the slightest.

"I'll probably feel slightly nostalgic about the sound and smell of fuel-burning cars someday" I don't know about the smell, but once people realize how dangerous is a car you can't hear coming, they will start adding some sound, and what's better than a traditional car sound? The sound will be easily faked using samples from well known engines played according to the current speed by transducers under the car. There…

> once people realize how dangerous is a car you can't hear coming

Modern cars are already very quiet at low speeds, what you're actually hearing at higher speeds is tire noise and (to a lesser degree) wind noise.

Several solutions present themselves. Firstly, people should learn to use their eyes, dammit. Secondly, a lot of electric cars have subtle noisemakers when driving at low speeds.

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