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The Real Danger to Civilization Isn't AI. It's Runaway Capitalism

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Re: The Real Danger to Civilization Isn't AI. It's Runaway Capitalism

#101
post #88
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

*> the damage that too much free market causes This is an unfortunate misunderstanding of the term "capitalism". While many people who call themselves capitalists would like everyone else to think it means a free market, the capitalists themselves don't mean that. They mean simply that they acquire control of more capital, by hook or by crook. If they can most easily acquire control of more capital in a free market,…

You make a very good point about capitalism vs. free market. I would only amend my comment to say that I think there is evidence that too much of either capitalism or free market can be damaging. For instance (and to use your definitions -- which I like -- if I understand them correctly), Comcast is the result of runaway capitalism, and the US healthcare system is too much free market. I also like your point about ac…

> the US healthcare system is too much free market.

It most certainly is not. The US health care system is basically a hodgepodge of somewhat free markets and draconian government regulation, which combines the worst features of both. It is nothing like what an actual free market in health care would produce.

To name just one important difference: in the US health care system, people purchasing health care services have no idea what they actually cost (because most of the cost is borne by their health insurance), and therefore have no idea whether those services are worth their cost. Yes, if you need a lifesaving operation you basically don't care what it costs; but most health care is not lifesaving operations but routine services like annual physical exams, immunizations, visits for simple ailments like a cold or flu, etc. Since people using these services don't see their actual cost, they don't know if they're getting proper value received for the cost. That means the most important mechanism of a free market, the ability of consumers to choose the best value for their money, can't work.

Re: The Real Danger to Civilization Isn't AI. It's Runaway Capitalism

#102
post #101
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make a very good point about capitalism vs. free market. I would only amend my comment to say that I think there is evidence that too much of either capitalism or free market can be damaging. For instance (and to use your definitions -- which I like -- if I understand them correctly), Comcast is the result of runaway capitalism, and the US healthcare system is too much free market. I also like your point about ac…

> the US healthcare system is too much free market. It most certainly is not. The US health care system is basically a hodgepodge of somewhat free markets and draconian government regulation, which combines the worst features of both. It is nothing like what an actual free market in health care would produce. To name just one important difference: in the US health care system, people purchasing health care services h…

It is absolutely way too much free market. Every healthcare system that is better than ours has way less free market and way more government control.

Re: The Real Danger to Civilization Isn't AI. It's Runaway Capitalism

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your worldview is common, but doesn't really understand where left-wing, pro-democratic socialists are coming from. Like you, we are driven by a deep mistrust of power. We hate absolute authority, like decentralization, and are especially interested in out of the box thinking. Right now, the box we find ourselves in is a capitalist society where capitalist ideology is completely pervasive. The most powerful and dange…

Socialist governments killed tens of millions of people in the 20th century. They acquired power far more completely than any company has. Big companies come and go. They may have power, but it's temporary, and there's nothing violent when they start losing their footing. I'd rather have Amazon delivery my groceries than live in Venezuela.

> I'd rather have Amazon delivery my groceries than live in Venezuela.

This is an either-or logical fallacy, acting like the only two options are either pure capitalism or pure socialism.

Many countries in the world manage to have some basics like socialized healthcare and education, yet they manage to not be hell-holes. Germany managed to enforce anti-trust legislation in their country to such an extent that Walmart left the country, yet "tens of millions of people" haven't been killed in the process.

Any ideology taken to a violent extreme is bad. That includes both communism and capitalism. Market failures are real, and the increase in socialist tendencies in the US is because most people recognize that those market failures need to be corrected.

Re: The Real Danger to Civilization Isn't AI. It's Runaway Capitalism

#104
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the US healthcare system is too much free market. It most certainly is not. The US health care system is basically a hodgepodge of somewhat free markets and draconian government regulation, which combines the worst features of both. It is nothing like what an actual free market in health care would produce. To name just one important difference: in the US health care system, people purchasing health care services h…

It is absolutely way too much free market. Every healthcare system that is better than ours has way less free market and way more government control.

> It is absolutely way too much free market.

Not with the correct definition of that term. You can't have a free market if the customers don't know the cost of what they're getting.

> Every healthcare system that is better than ours has way less free market and way more government control.

Which systems are these that are "better"? Many have lower costs, but that's not the same as "better" since many outcomes and metrics (such as wait times for services) are also worse.

Re: The Real Danger to Civilization Isn't AI. It's Runaway Capitalism

#105
post #27

Nicely done Buzzfeed. Billionaires like Bill Gates and Elon Musk assume that a superintelligent AI will stop at nothing to achieves its goals because that’s the attitude they adopted. Kind of reminds one of Ex Machina . If amoral profit maximizers design AI, it's very possibly gonna be an amoral profit maximizer. It still irrationally bothers me after 30 years of shitty MS products and Gates literally preventing tech…

I think if you were on the receiving end of one of the Gates Foundation projects you would feel very different. "Preventing technological progress" -- so because of M$ shenanigangs perhaps rich kids got their toys a year or two later? (Big perhaps.) Still think the world as a whole was better off with Bill Gates in it. You have to be rich to give the same moral weight to providing tech toys and providing medicines.

>"Preventing technological progress" -- so because of M$ shenanigangs perhaps rich kids got their toys a year or two later? (Big perhaps.) Still think the world as a whole was better off with Bill Gates in it.

TIL protocols and operating system technologies that could make life better for millions is just some rich kid's toy.

Re: The Real Danger to Civilization Isn't AI. It's Runaway Capitalism

#106
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think if you were on the receiving end of one of the Gates Foundation projects you would feel very different. "Preventing technological progress" -- so because of M$ shenanigangs perhaps rich kids got their toys a year or two later? (Big perhaps.) Still think the world as a whole was better off with Bill Gates in it. You have to be rich to give the same moral weight to providing tech toys and providing medicines.

>"Preventing technological progress" -- so because of M$ shenanigangs perhaps rich kids got their toys a year or two later? (Big perhaps.) Still think the world as a whole was better off with Bill Gates in it. TIL protocols and operating system technologies that could make life better for millions is just some rich kid's toy.

I am glad you understood my statement...

If you can display how "better operating systems" and "make life better for millions" fits together I may change my mind.

Basically anything that is not providing for basic human needs are "rich peoples toys" in my book (in the context of evaluating Gates' moral standards). Operating systems are just not in the same playing field as peace, food, health.

There are some hundred million people living in utter despair. If you mildly inconvenience others in order to help these, you are taking from the rich and giving to the poor.

Re: The Real Danger to Civilization Isn't AI. It's Runaway Capitalism

#108
post #66
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not neither? The greatest danger to Civilization, in my not-so-humble opinion is tribalism. My country is better. My religion. My political philosophy. My color. My sex. My gender. And I'll riot and kill if you don't agree. Capitalism? Socialism? AI? Those won't overcome the stupidity of large populations of humans.

Counterpoint: tribalism is what makes us do great things. The US went to space because we wanted to beat Russia. Spain re-discovered America because they wanted to beat the Portuguese. Rome built an empire because they wanted Romans to be wealthier, stronger, more civilized than everyone else. I like to think of ancient China as the counter-example. China built a huge, self-sufficient empire. It had almost everything…

I don't disagree... "us vs them" has lead to some great races (and Super Bowls).

The problem is the extreme version that ends in Nuclear War.

We can survive quite a few races - race to the stars. Race to solar. Race to the Super Bowl.

We can only lose the Nuclear Arms race once.

And North Korea ai'nt lookin pretty.

Re: The Real Danger to Civilization Isn't AI. It's Runaway Capitalism

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what would your solution be? Because I imagine it would be government control on what we're allowed to spend money on. You are a totalitarian, and while it might be a "good" thing in some situations, that kind of power is quickly and easily corrupted. How long do you think you can last before regulatory capture happens? How long can you last before you're persecuting people for thoughtcrimes? I'll take the "peopl…

The government controls a LOT of what we can buy already. Sex work is highly regulated, and you can't buy people . You also can't buy endangered animals, ivory, or nuclear weapons. In terms of people spending money on what they want, people spend lots of money on opioids and it ruins their lives, or kills them. Should doctors and pharmaceutical companies not be bound by any regulatory body? Should people just be allo…

Lol, you're using the opiod argument because you think it's a slam dunk.

People who use drugs are not harming anyone with force or fraud. And if drugs were decriminalized, they'd be far cheaper, and drug addicts wouldn't have to turn to crime to pay for their drugs. The drug war is a massive failure and a huge civil rights violation.

I would also hope that, when drugs are decriminalized, the drug addict would choose a safer opiate, like simple morphine or heroin. Yes, they are very addictive, and they can cause overdoses, but if people could buy their drugs in a legal market they could actually get good dosage information and it wouldn't be cut with shit like fentanil.

Re: The Real Danger to Civilization Isn't AI. It's Runaway Capitalism

#110

Runaway capitalism, oh shit. So that does that mean: - Global poverty will continue to decrease - We'll get a variety of options to choose from whenever we want to buy something - We'll get to choose how to spend our own money - We'll get quick and diligent service - If we don't like something, we can choose to stop buying it or working for them? The horror!!!!!

We'll also get highly optimized algorithms that sell us things we don't need through the use of psychology and the exploitation of human nature. We'll also get rampant misspending of scientific research funds, which will go to boner pills and hair replacement techniques, rather than curing malaria or exploring space. We'll also have the end-game for all capitalist nations be leadership that is completely bought and p…

I wanted to add my two cents regarding the algorithms selling us things we don't need. In my opinion, it in large part contributes to the global poverty and income inequality with the help of social pressure that haves put on have-nots who in turn try to catch-up any way possible, further adding pressure on themselves to be "successful".
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