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A plan to rescue the Web from the Internet

staltz.com

121–130 of 220 posts

Re: A plan to rescue the Web from the Internet

#121

In my view of history, P2P takes off and does well when it's faster for end-users than centralized solutions; P2P solutions fail when centralized solutions are faster. This holds regardless of the political advantages (or disadvantages) of P2P. BitTorrent is often faster for large files than centralized solutions, so people use it. (It's still inconvenient for a new user to kick off their first torrent, but WebTorren…

Maybe there will be a time in the future when the necessary factors will all coincide. Improved battery technology, slowing Internet speeds (for Reasons), and change in the public's attitudes (probably starting with those generation or two below us).

Anything attempting to solve the problem before this time could be cursed as "before its time".

Re: A plan to rescue the Web from the Internet

#122
post #53

Here’s the problem with IP addresses: there aren’t enough of them.... As a consequence, the Internet has allowed intermediate computers to rule. These are like parasites that have grown too large to remove without killing the host. The technical flaw that favored intermediate computers prefigured a world where middlemen business models thrive. The handwave is the word "prefigure". How did IPv4 and NAT play any role i…

And this is important because the author misses the point as to why people get value from the "middlemen" -- to find stuff. Even with a content-centered web, there will be a need to find content and people, and new discovery engines and aggregators will emerge.

It's hard to imagine how things could be different, but for many services you don't need a middleman. For a long time, banking was thought to be a necessary middleman because you "have to" trust at least some actor to verify the transactions. Turns out you don't need to, with distributed ledgers (Bitcoin, etc).

When it comes to search engines, two things shake the centralized assumption: (1) you can crawl DHTs like https://github.com/boramalper/magnetico does for BitTorrent, and this can be done self-hosted, (2) too often we assume that searches must be global, but in many cases you are implicitly constraining your search space to regional boundaries or interest boundaries. E.g. as a westerner you are probably not interested in content from Vietnam or Pakistan. Also, when searching the Web, rarely do people browse through multiple Google search result pages. As a consequence, things like `awesome-*` lists ( https://github.com/bayandin/awesome-awesomeness ) are a good starting point for a decentralized curated catalogue that could cover that use case. So you could imagine a curated catalogue of programming websites compiled as a few hundred megabyte file, it could pretty much cover your interest boundaries, and as a file this can be shared over Dat today very easily. Want to search another 'interest boundary'? Run the same search software but on a different catalogue file. These things are possible.

In other words, centralization is overestimated. Maybe there are a couple of genuine centralized-middleman use cases but most of use cases can be very well covered by decentralization.

Re: A plan to rescue the Web from the Internet

#123
post #87

There's a lot of white on this map: [World Population Density]( http://www.luminocity3d.org/WorldPopDen/ ) — the hard part is gonna be getting data between Europe and New Zealand without Big Wire. I love how Staltz's solution to this goes hand-in-hand with re-personalising our interactions. In short: 1. The Next Billion haven't yet become used to the idea that useful tech services must be global, and provided for you…

Building a connection across a continent just by hopping from mesh node to mesh node is like trying to drive across a country by just using dirt paths. It is clearly not impossible, but there is a reason that most people choose to use highways for long distances. It is similar with a several-hundred-hop long path through a mesh network vs a single hop over a suboceanic fiber connection. In particular, step 5 is untru…

OP here. I find more than 4 hops impracticable. That's not what I was suggesting in the article. I suggested (probably not clearly enough) three ways meshes can be efficient: (1) local-first social networking where the use case is "download latest updates and read later" much more than it would be like instant messaging, (2) gossip, the eventual propagation of data over long distances, (3) satellite-based meshes to cover large distance hops.

Re: A plan to rescue the Web from the Internet

#124

> Smartphone manufacturers sell mesh-first mobile devices for the developing world I hope puri.sm is listening. This is what I want my Librem 5 to be!

I would, without question, purchase this their device if it had mesh-first radios on-board.

Re: A plan to rescue the Web from the Internet

#125
post #8

I'm all for p2p (really), but how about taking back control (sorry) of the Web by actually developing and enforcing declarative/markup technologies and standards instead of praising JavaScript because "it's not half bad" and adding procedural features to the Web (APIs, WASM)? With the current state of affairs wrt privacy and self-proclaimed standardization bodies, I'm not sure the Web is worth preserving.

HTML with great default styles and better built-in form and interactive elements (date picker, sortable tables) would be ideal. Screw CSS, it slows everything down, just have good defaults and don't let pages mess with them much. If we must have CSS at least jettison the complex parts with animation and such. Make it very, very simple and weak. No Javascript. Can't be trusted if it has the ability to initiate connect…

A lot of the smaller blogs and personal sites I follow use CSS and Javascript in quite unique ways that give them the freedom to express themselves. I think this is a huge use case that your view misses out on in a people-centric web.

I agree that articles would be a lot easier to read if everyone followed a consistent style. And sure the internet would be a safer and faster place without javascript. But you can't just throw it all out the window.

It sounds like what you want is some sort of simple web, with nothing more than HTML and some decent default styling. Wouldn't a web based on markdown or latex be awesome?

Re: A plan to rescue the Web from the Internet

#126
post #24
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HTML with great default styles and better built-in form and interactive elements (date picker, sortable tables) would be ideal. Screw CSS, it slows everything down, just have good defaults and don't let pages mess with them much. If we must have CSS at least jettison the complex parts with animation and such. Make it very, very simple and weak. No Javascript. Can't be trusted if it has the ability to initiate connect…

Sorry, but I wouldn't like to lose the ability to build fully custom solutions. I don't want to rely on defaults. One person's sensible default is another's insane one. JavaScript is what it is today because it serves a purpose and frankly, I think it does it well enough for now. And without CSS we'll end up with Beige boxed web, all looking the same, behaving the same, and stuck in someone's idea of a sensible defau…

> all looking the same, behaving the same

Yes, please!

Re: A plan to rescue the Web from the Internet

#128
post #31
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HTML with great default styles and better built-in form and interactive elements (date picker, sortable tables) would be ideal. Screw CSS, it slows everything down, just have good defaults and don't let pages mess with them much. If we must have CSS at least jettison the complex parts with animation and such. Make it very, very simple and weak. No Javascript. Can't be trusted if it has the ability to initiate connect…

> it'd feel lightning fast compared to what we have now I disagree with this completely. So much of what JS does is increase the (perceived) speed and sanity of the user experience. For example, in a scriptless world, your HN up/down vote can't be done without a full page load, which would come with the added headache of changing the state of the world on your page because stories and comments have changed their orde…

> in a scriptless world, your HN up/down vote can't be done without a full page load

In a perfect world, HN wouldn't need any web thing at all, NNTP is better fit for it. With all the features of decent newsreader of your taste.

Re: A plan to rescue the Web from the Internet

#129
post #10

The reason the Web needs rescuing is because it's not a particularly well-designed system that has been patched over and over again for the last quarter century. And now it has been degraded to a delivery layer for JavaScript apps, a poor RPC protocol and an overly complex UI rendering toolkit. It should have had protocol-level technologies for preserving historic data, for search, for offline use, for authoring and…

[deleted]

Re: A plan to rescue the Web from the Internet

#130
post #47
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it'd feel lightning fast compared to what we have now I disagree with this completely. So much of what JS does is increase the (perceived) speed and sanity of the user experience. For example, in a scriptless world, your HN up/down vote can't be done without a full page load, which would come with the added headache of changing the state of the world on your page because stories and comments have changed their orde…

> For example, in a scriptless world, your HN up/down vote can't be done without a full page load, which would come with the added headache of changing the state of the world on your page because stories and comments have changed their ordering. Solution? Return of the chronological thread (no thanks). I don't see why it would have to change the state of the world on your page. Sites like HN in a scriptless client wo…

That's true, but it would still need to reload, rather than just sending the little request in the background as you keep scrolling along.
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