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The Real Danger to Civilization Isn't AI. It's Runaway Capitalism

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Re: The Real Danger to Civilization Isn't AI. It's Runaway Capitalism

#51

Post by sbov »

throwaway1660 wrote: post #3

Just thought I'd drop by with this helpful link about Venezuela: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/12/17/world/america... There's a first time for everything. New kinds of disasters happen. However, we can identify a number of past and present civilizational collapses, going back to the 18th century, that appear to correlate strongly with what we might call "runaway socialism." It seems difficult to identify a…

> "capitalists" think of "capitalism" as just a thing that happens when property is respected and contract law works

"Just a thing" is a conveniently abridged version considering capitalists can only own anything physical in the first place because their government took it from someone else under threat of (or actual) physical violence. The only way anyone can own anything they had no hand in creating is by planting a flag and saying "I'll shoot you if you step over here".

It's still (IMHO) the best system we have. Doesn't mean I have to be blind to its problems.

Re: The Real Danger to Civilization Isn't AI. It's Runaway Capitalism

#52

Post by Fenrisulfr »

I wish the author dipped into accelerationist philosophy and its adherents. Most accelerationists nowadays seem to be into Bostrom-esque singularitarianism and the idea of marching forward with unabashed capitalism as an 'optimum resource allocation process' to allocate capital into AI technology efforts. Essentially: Bring the singularity faster, through more capitalism. They are pretty explicit about it, and I would bet the author would have a good time taking their ideas head-on instead of avoiding them entirely. See: Nick Land, Robin Mackay, Benjamin Noys.

Re: The Real Danger to Civilization Isn't AI. It's Runaway Capitalism

#54

Post by dragonwriter »

jonny_eh wrote: post #35
dragonwriter wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, if the people of a country are asking that too much be "given" to them (I.E. more than the country actually has), who's going to stop that? The external actors from whom such goods must come will, as historically they always eventually have.

Which leads to a destroyed economy, see Venezuela and Greece.

Sometimes, sometimes not; it's pretty much the story of every empire that falls, too, and some.of those are spectacularly disastrous for the metropole, some not.

Venezuela and Greece are cases not only of dependence on outside actors to meet internal demands but also of the state in question being weak in comparison to the individual outside actors involved (not just the aggregate of the outside actors involved.) That probably makes a good outcome harder to achieve.

Re: The Real Danger to Civilization Isn't AI. It's Runaway Capitalism

#55

Post by iamcasen »

The author touches on a salient point: capitalism has no market for social good. Social good does not equate to profit, in fact, it is usually an exorbitant cost.

Furthermore, capitalism has obvious logical limitations that most people who are in love with it seem to ignore. It runs on resource and energy extraction from the earth. All economic operations run on energy and materials. There will come a point where all resources are extracted from the earth, so no new wealth will be generated in that way.

At that point (likely much sooner), capitalism as we use it today will not function what so ever.

Re: The Real Danger to Civilization Isn't AI. It's Runaway Capitalism

#56

Post by yedava »

hal9000xp wrote: post #29

Capitalism is danger for civilization? Writes who? A buzzfeed. A very, very leftist media site. How we end up in situation when huge portion (if not majority) of hacker community turned out to be die hard socialists ? (nowadays they call themselves social-democrats) I remember when I lived in Uzbekistan and I didn't have access to internet, I got floppy disk with saved copies of Eric Raymond articles. Once I've read…

Wealth inequality leads to a form of centralization of power. One could even say that libertarian inspired deregulation of the past few decades has accelerated this centralization of power. So it shouldn't be surprising if people are looking for other political systems to decentralize power.

Re: The Real Danger to Civilization Isn't AI. It's Runaway Capitalism

#57

Post by kenforthewin »

civilian wrote: post #13

Runaway capitalism, oh shit. So that does that mean: - Global poverty will continue to decrease - We'll get a variety of options to choose from whenever we want to buy something - We'll get to choose how to spend our own money - We'll get quick and diligent service - If we don't like something, we can choose to stop buying it or working for them? The horror!!!!!

Thanks for the "centrist" perspective, but over here in reality we are experiencing the negative effects of runaway capitalism, including the existential threat of global warming. But I'm glad you're getting quick service at your local fast food chain.

Re: The Real Danger to Civilization Isn't AI. It's Runaway Capitalism

#58

Post by grasshopperpurp »

jerf wrote: post #23
aaron-lebo wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unethical crony capitalism can destroy capitalism through the accumulation of wealth and centralization of power. What's the difference between 5 robber barons running the show and 5 members of the party vanguard? I'd suggest if you are a serious fan of capitalism, you take the arguments seriously.

Historically speaking, the US has survived robber barons, but Venezuela qua Venezuela has not survived its party vanguard. Likewise, I have a hard time taking anyone seriously advocating for socialism who is unwilling to grapple with the fact that, yes, Venezuela is a valid data point, as are the hundreds millions of deaths socialism is directly responsible for, and spending at least a few moments contemplating wheth…

>Historically speaking, the US has survived robber barons

Because of socialist policies.

Re: The Real Danger to Civilization Isn't AI. It's Runaway Capitalism

#59

Post by dgllghr »

hal9000xp wrote: post #29

Capitalism is danger for civilization? Writes who? A buzzfeed. A very, very leftist media site. How we end up in situation when huge portion (if not majority) of hacker community turned out to be die hard socialists ? (nowadays they call themselves social-democrats) I remember when I lived in Uzbekistan and I didn't have access to internet, I got floppy disk with saved copies of Eric Raymond articles. Once I've read…

This article does not say that capitalism is a danger to society, it says that Runaway Capitalism is a danger to society. I think there is a lot of evidence out there of the damage that too much free market causes, just as there is a lot of evidence for that damage that too much centralization in an economy causes.

I don't disagree with you in some of these points, but I do disagree (as someone who thinks that the author of this article makes some good points) about being a "die hard socialist". Wanting universal healthcare, funded education, infrastructure spending, and corporate oversight does not make me a socialist. Or if we've moved so far to the right that it does make me a socialist, so be it. I'm not moving.

Re: The Real Danger to Civilization Isn't AI. It's Runaway Capitalism

#60

Post by tarnacious_ »

civilian wrote: post #13

Runaway capitalism, oh shit. So that does that mean: - Global poverty will continue to decrease - We'll get a variety of options to choose from whenever we want to buy something - We'll get to choose how to spend our own money - We'll get quick and diligent service - If we don't like something, we can choose to stop buying it or working for them? The horror!!!!!

Significantly decreasing intergenerational mobility is very concerning. Especially for those who aren't wealthy already.
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