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Why you can’t cash out part 1: Bitcoin’s “price” is largely fictional

davidgerard.co.uk

201–210 of 271 posts

Re: Why you can’t cash out part 1: Bitcoin’s “price” is largely fictional

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't entirely true. If secondary market trades increase the value of the stock then the company can sell some of their stock to get more funding, or can borrow at better terms. Similarly, buying and holding Bitcoin has a range of effects that help the network and generate real wealth. Bitcoin is a services company, a payment network, a bank, and investment vehicle, a reflection of wealth in that economy, a nota…

Almost no companies today are selling stock to grow the company. Tesla is a big exception. Somehow we have gotten to a place where there is lots of capital wanting to invest in something that will make returns, but few people/companies wanting to work with large sums of capital to try new business ideas.

> Almost no companies today are selling stock to grow the company

Public market performance influences IPO performance. IPO performance directly knocks on future managements’ decisions around going public or raising a private round. The performance of those moves influences early-stage capital availability through multiple channels. Equity markets, broadly, are complicated, but they are an essential component to fuelling firm creation and growth.

Re: Why you can’t cash out part 1: Bitcoin’s “price” is largely fictional

#202

You can cash out Bitcoin and the price is actually very accurate. The money I see in my bank account is real I can assure you of that. Also I know friends that cash out six figures at a time and the price they get is within less than 1% difference to the last sell price. The number is accurate enough for most orders under $10,000,000. Has this person actually traded Bitcoin? You might not be able to sell a large orde…

[deleted]

Re: Why you can’t cash out part 1: Bitcoin’s “price” is largely fictional

#203
From a post from r/ethereum:

TLDR version: The author is a giant tool and his opinion in this space is basically worthless.

David Gerard is a cryptocurrency antagonist and even a frequent contributor to /r/Buttcoin/. Outside of wiki, he writes satirical articles and snark-laden comments dismissing first Bitcoin as a libertarian scam and now Ethereum because I guess Bitcoin wore him out. He sees cryptocurrencies and their adherents as a monolith comprised of economically ignorant libertarians that need to be educated. He's been doing it for 5 years straight. I don't know that there is anything that can be done when someone uses Wikipedia as a channel for their own political purposes.

His monolithic vision that hasn't updated since 2011 (http://intelligentdesigns.net/insert-bitcoin/): "I wouldn’t attribute malice because I know a lot of Bitcoin advocates, and they’re painfully sincere people, and mostly libertarian through lack of appreciation of their personal privilege rather than any actual decision."

Again in 2011 (https://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2251220&cid=36493852): "One good thing about Bitcoin threads on Slashdot: plenty of opportunity to beat Econ 101 into the heads of libertoonians who think they've got the perfect zinger for every situation."

In 2013 (http://discussion.fsfeurope.narkive.com/hl42sXq7/petition-of...): "Bitcoin would love an FSF-related imprimatur (and FSFE counts); feeding the vested interests of the early Bitcoin adopters and their wish to con people into buying their coins may not be in FSFE's best interests."

In 2013, with wikimedia about accepting Bitcoin donations (!) (http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/engine?do=post_view_fl...): "It's completely wrong to call these things Ponzi schemes. Technically, they're pump-and-dumps.""

In 2016 (https://www.reddit.com/r/Buttcoin/comments/4b1u2n/what_would...): "[–]dgerard 12 points 1 day ago 'a consequence of the the bitcoin community not only not understanding how money works, but also not understanding how bitcoin works.' The Bitcoin space, summarised."

He's likely a painfully sincere person, who lacks appreciation of new evidence and has a firm grasp on neither fintech nor finance. One example: the mere fact that large vetting institutions like banks and investment firms have invested billions in Bitcoin and separately blockchain tech changes the probability that Bitcoin is doomed to fail and a pump'n'dump scheme. But what does a bank know about money, I guess, could be the reply?

So as times have changed and as we've all learned more about Bitcoin and blockchain tech's existential issues, his view of Bitcoin and crypto remains the same -- that it is a pump & dump scheme doomed to fail. And it's his mission to educate people and control the damage.

He has basically staked ownership of the Ethereum wiki. He's referred to Ethereum as vapourware and a "pump'n'dump bubble" (at $3). He doesn't seem to grasp the details or the point of anything about it, other than as a pump & dump. For awhile, this was one of the few featured things he allowed on the Ethereum wiki. It's so out of context as to be incredibly biased and it leads to making the article confused for any person new to Ethereum -- "The documentation notes that computation on the EVM is "very expensive" and that "you will not be able to do anything on the EVM that you cannot do on a smartphone from 1999."[13]"

It's a bummer. I'd feel equally disturbed if someone wrote things that weren't true or out of context to make Ethereum look better on wiki. If you have a bunch of biases about something and are in a situation where you are asked to be objective on it, you should recuse yourself. It's basic ethics. I would encourage people NOT to go over there and try and edit unless you are going to be extremely conservative and respectful of Wikipedia's rules and expectations. Even then, I would advise against it. It won't accomplish anything. Honestly, that page will be what it will be until he recuses himself.

The Foundation as well as third parties that follow Ethereum can make sure that their sites contain accurate high level information for when people go to Wiki, leave too confused to even form a cogent opinion AGAINST Ethereum, and need further help understanding Ethereum. This sub will also serve that purpose. Time will weed out what's true.

Samples of David Gerard's work

http://newstechnica.com/2011/06/18/bitcoin-to-revolutionise-...

https://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2251220&cid=36493852

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Bitcoin

http://insidebitcoins.com/news/the-surprising-and-blatantly-...

http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/engine?do=post_view_fl...

http://rocknerd.co.uk/2015/07/23/putting-the-record-industry...

https://www.reddit.com/r/Buttcoin/comments/2npmjc/rational_w...

http://discussion.fsfeurope.narkive.com/hl42sXq7/petition-of...

Added: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/8222397.stm -- Here he advocates locking pages on living people and new entities because it's so easy for people ("the world has a certain number of idiots in it") to misuse Wiki in those instances to shape the narrative.

Re: Why you can’t cash out part 1: Bitcoin’s “price” is largely fictional

#204
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

@patrick Every American participating in that economy must pay taxes every year on their income. The taxes must be paid in US dollars, even if the economic activity uses a different currency or barter. Therefore Americans must come up with a quantity of USD proportional to the size of the American economy every year (or "go to prison"), and provided that the total amount of USD in existence is bounded (this part is t…

Gold is valuable by itself and there is only 80-90k tons of it ever (plus some amount in the oceans). Gold would be used everywhere in the electronics in pure form if it was priced and widespread as copper or iron.

Yes, of course, but those uses are not very important to understanding the current price of gold.

Likewise, I own a $100 billion Zimbabwean dollar bill as a curiosity, but that market doesn't put an important floor on fiat currency prices!

Re: Why you can’t cash out part 1: Bitcoin’s “price” is largely fictional

#205
Can someone weigh in on the relatively large difference in prices between various exchanges. I have always mentally chalked it up to friction--caused by the fees of converting from fiat to bitcoin--eating up all the edge in the arb. Is that all it is?

[1] https://www.cryptocompare.com/coins/btc/markets/USD

Re: Why you can’t cash out part 1: Bitcoin’s “price” is largely fictional

#206

You can cash out Bitcoin and the price is actually very accurate. The money I see in my bank account is real I can assure you of that. Also I know friends that cash out six figures at a time and the price they get is within less than 1% difference to the last sell price. The number is accurate enough for most orders under $10,000,000. Has this person actually traded Bitcoin? You might not be able to sell a large orde…

What I don't get from the arbitrage side is why is the spread so much between exchanges? Surely if there is a $500 difference between two exchanges it makes sense to build up volume in both and simply move between them as the price fluctuates? Are the fees and transaction times really so onerous that $500+ differences are washed out in the process?

Re: Why you can’t cash out part 1: Bitcoin’s “price” is largely fictional

#207
I don't know nearly enough to comment on the article but at this point I started to think Bitcoin is an abomination that will ultimately hurt everyone - not just the people who invested in it. I think Bitcoin is an abomination because after 9 years of idealistic search for meaningful use case it is almost evident there is none. Instead, Bitcoin becomes this no-face monster swallowing more and more speculative investments. "If something cannot go on forever, it will stop". Bitcoin investors know this and they all hope they will be the ones to withdraw before the bubble bursts and that their gains will be paid by the misfortune of those who are not as "smart" as them.

If pyramid scheme is all we want from cryptocurrencies, we could have done it without the invention of the blockchain.

Re: Why you can’t cash out part 1: Bitcoin’s “price” is largely fictional

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could do that. It's not really zero risk though because the coin could drop in value. Usually (real) traders who find arbs on (real) exchanges will submit simultaneous bid/ask orders without holding the actual product. They can clear the trades later.

Of course.. if you could take a short position against the coin, you could hedge and eliminate your risk.

> if you could take a short position against the coin

How can you short it? CBOE futures only exist for one exchange. What if that exchange’s price stays steady while others crash? Or that exchange goes up while others crash, thereby triggering margin calls while you lose money? Sure, the situation will eventually rectify itself. In the short term, however, you’re broke.

Re: Why you can’t cash out part 1: Bitcoin’s “price” is largely fictional

#209
post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there’s actually a real risk in bitcoin of a few people controlling all of the wealth which makes it a not very fun game to play for anyone else, and makes it hard to justify it as a payments platform.

That's an interesting point - but how is that not unlike our current capitalist system? There was a tweet (posted on HN the other day) that 50% of wealth in Europe is inherited...

You can’t legally walk away from dollars in the us.

Re: Why you can’t cash out part 1: Bitcoin’s “price” is largely fictional

#210
post #206

You can cash out Bitcoin and the price is actually very accurate. The money I see in my bank account is real I can assure you of that. Also I know friends that cash out six figures at a time and the price they get is within less than 1% difference to the last sell price. The number is accurate enough for most orders under $10,000,000. Has this person actually traded Bitcoin? You might not be able to sell a large orde…

What I don't get from the arbitrage side is why is the spread so much between exchanges? Surely if there is a $500 difference between two exchanges it makes sense to build up volume in both and simply move between them as the price fluctuates? Are the fees and transaction times really so onerous that $500+ differences are washed out in the process?

Exchange A price is $1000

Exchange B price is $1250

Makes sense to buy on A and sell on B for a nice profit. So I buy 3 coins on A and send them to Be, sell on B and have a nice $750 profit. Now you need to get fiat from B to A and this is where you hit your bottleneck.

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