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I don’t want to be the pink elephant in the room

imallika.com

41–50 of 147 posts

Re: I don’t want to be the pink elephant in the room

#41

Something I've noticed after 10 years in tech/finance is that there are very, very few western women in engineering roles. I think I've only ever worked with 1 woman who wasn't an Eastern European or Asian immigrant (and yeah, I eventually married one of the immigrant ones). The gender gap is purely cultural, and we should be learning from what those cultures are doing that's different than us. This article really hi…

>those cultures are doing that's different than us.

1. One of the very few jobs that is well paid. So you are either a software engineer or poor.

2. There is not social stigma associated with being an engineer. infact its the opposite, see point 1.

3. Even in India "math is for boys" meme is strong but point 1 overpowers everything else.

> The gender gap is purely cultural

Unless you can point me to a non-poor country where this is true, I would say 'The gender gap is purely economical '

Re: I don’t want to be the pink elephant in the room

#42
post #20
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly what I'm also wondering. Given that the whole company seems genuinely devoted to increasing diversity, I would tend towards the first possibility, especially since the team manager boasted a lot that his team has one of the highest female to male ratio in the company.

Why would one boast about less diversity? Did you mean "highest ratio"?

You are right, I got the order wrong :) Updated post.

Re: I don’t want to be the pink elephant in the room

#43
Its nice that author ended up going to engineering school via massive social and economic inertia afforded only to a tiny sliver of indian population. But there are lot more women who need the helping hand and encouragement provided by those groups. So perhaps a little empathy towards those programs and what they are trying to achieve, even if it causes minor distress?

Re: I don’t want to be the pink elephant in the room

#44
post #16

I often see people arguing against the idea of sexless-ness based on the idea that its been tried and failed, but I honestly the only time I truly seen evidence of this is in movies making fun of the 70th's. It seems that when the feminist movement moved away from equality feminism it cultural had to disavow the concept of sexless-ness. The idea of sexless-ness, which can also be describe as women/men as equal and un…

The problem with sexless-ness is that it only addresses what we're conscious of, when we know that there's lots of unconscious or systemic biases that still exist.

One famous example was a study that involved submitting resumes to various jobs with names removed and then randomly reassigned (to avoid any actual correlation between the name's perceived gender and the quality of the resume). Resumes with female names received half the callbacks than if they had male names. You can't practice sexless-ness when you're not aware that you're discriminating.

Re: I don’t want to be the pink elephant in the room

#45
> There is no room for “maybe” - and there is no room for “is this a woman who wrote this or is it a man”. All one should care about is - is this excellent or is it not? Is this right or is this wrong?

The general way that I have understood folks who advocate the programs that are being presented as problematic here is: whether or not there should be room for "maybe", and whether or not one should care about anything else, people inject maybes and do care about gender. That is, the diversity programs and the sense of “I should support this person because she is a woman” is rooted in an observation or impression that being a woman puts you at a disadvantage in one way or another. The bias is already there, and the attempt is at a counterbias.

I think it's very good that this isn't a problem in the author's experience, but that doesn't mean it isn't a problem at all. That said, I'm wondering if there can be a better balance between supporting women who are good but aren't judged to be, or feel like they aren't even though they are, and women who are perfectly confident in their abilities and just want to operate like a sexless engineer at work. Certainly I'm hopeful that women don't experience that bias in every organization, and a (hypothetical) organization that's already structured in an unbiased way would perhaps not want to focus on gender.

From a purely practical standpoint, though, it feels like the right question here is, does the approach the author doesn't like reduce the number of women who don't enter or who leave the industry due to bias more than it increases the number of women who leave in frustration from being treated as ‘different’. If the problem these programs are meant to address is ‘many women leave the industry or don't join it because of perceived bias’, then that's the real metric. In a perfect world, nobody cares… But in a world where people are biased against women, perhaps you have to try to adjust explicitly for that in the short term, so that you can get to the goal of a world where nobody cares in the longer run.

Re: I don’t want to be the pink elephant in the room

#46
post #7

"All one should care about is - is this excellent or is it not? Is this right or is this wrong?" I generally agree with this article. But you can't be a white male and speak this way in silicon valley without being shamed and being labeled a Trump supporter. Especially if your company has militant diversity advocates.

Being taken seriously means your crimethink is also taken seriously.

Re: I don’t want to be the pink elephant in the room

#47
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of hinting at something, why not just tell us how you really feel? Is it because it's a conclusion that is generally not accepted when put in plain terms?

Not op but since you asked, I will draw the conclusion. Given that we observe a larger gender gap in countries that are more gender equality we can conclude that when men and women feel more equal their choice of profession diverge.

i don't think you're allowed to speak that heresy in polite society.

Re: I don’t want to be the pink elephant in the room

#48
Excellent title. It conveyed the entire meaning of the article in this context. That's wonderful, because the moment I clicked through, I realized I would not be able to read the article without enabling javascript. All I receive is a loading spinner. I closed the page and checked the comments to confirm my understanding of the article was accurate. It seems it was. Excellent title. I wish more articles could be this clever and succinct at the same time.

Re: I don’t want to be the pink elephant in the room

#49
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of hinting at something, why not just tell us how you really feel? Is it because it's a conclusion that is generally not accepted when put in plain terms?

Not op but since you asked, I will draw the conclusion. Given that we observe a larger gender gap in countries that are more gender equality we can conclude that when men and women feel more equal their choice of profession diverge.

You've got a huge number of confounding variables here that you're not accounting for. Gender equality and cultural attitudes towards gender roles are not simple metrics, you can't infer that just because some aspect of a culture demonstrates superior gender equality to another that this culture is necessarily superior in gender equality in every way. Attitudes are vastly more complicated than that, and there's no reason to believe that a society that is more progressive in one sense can't be more regressive in another.

Re: I don’t want to be the pink elephant in the room

#50
post #16

I often see people arguing against the idea of sexless-ness based on the idea that its been tried and failed, but I honestly the only time I truly seen evidence of this is in movies making fun of the 70th's. It seems that when the feminist movement moved away from equality feminism it cultural had to disavow the concept of sexless-ness. The idea of sexless-ness, which can also be describe as women/men as equal and un…

Maybe sexlessness overstates the case. It was more like sex blindness. Or sex irrelevance. I mean, she writes:

> I come from a country and a back ground where intelligence and the ability to work extremely hard is valued highly, with beauty, money and popularity ranked far, far below.

In contrast, modern American culture (which is globally pervasive) is just so incredibly sexualized. And incredibly polarized. Many women are angry, and many men are addicted to angry porn. It seems rather a divide-and-conquer strategy by the kleptocrats. But maybe it's just chaos.

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