What People Think You Can’t Say in Silicon Valley • Hacker News Board

Re: What People Think You Can’t Say in Silicon Valley

#131

Post by insickness » Sun, Dec 17, 2017, 4:02 PM UTC

aseow wrote: post #116

insickness wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"A non-nerd reads it as: I want to kick out all X from tech. / I consider X inferior." I was out on an internet date with Scandinavian woman a few years ago. She was some type of sociological researcher, which interested me. I told her that part of the discrepancy in representation between genders in tech could be biologically oriented and she immediately said, "I don't want to hear arguments from biology!" She said…

Chances are this didn't have so much to do with open debate as making a faux pas. 1. Scandinavian society is largely based on that biology isn't a good enough justification for inequality. Unless you're being very specific you also end up making an argument against Scandinavia equality. Which is something that many Scandinavians would obviously disagree with. (the argument, not necessarily the arguing). 2. Scandinavi…

> Presenting a casual theory to someone in the field is generally not a good idea.

I don't buy that at all. As long as the argument is based on science, there's no reason you can close your ears to other fields of study that could affect your own.

> The research of biological traits doesn't seem to support the large gender difference in technology.

Nor does the research support that the large difference in due to social construct. The default answer "It's all due to social construct" is presumptuous.

There's an interesting paradox. In countries with more gender equality, like Sweden, women end up in more traditionally female fields, like nursing where as in countries with less equality, like India, women end up in more traditionally male fields, like engineering. Do a search for the Swedish gender equality paradox.

The male to female ratio of autism is 4:1. There are other studies that show genetic differences in gender that exist outside of social construct. Male monkeys tend to play with boy toys, while female monkeys play with girl toys.

There are obviously genetic differences between men and women as well as genetic preferences. How these affect the ratio in technology is very difficult to ascertain. We can't just say it doesn't seem like enough to account for the difference because we don't know how that difference plays out throughout people's lives.

Re: What People Think You Can’t Say in Silicon Valley

#132

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Dec 17, 2017, 4:09 PM UTC

to_bpr wrote: post #5

SV has championed a super toxic, toe-the-liberal-line-question-nothing atmosphere in the workplace for years now. The damage is done. You'd have to be a total fool to bring up any of the non-left-wing, yet totally valid comments on that post in a tech workplace in 2017.

[deleted]

Re: What People Think You Can’t Say in Silicon Valley

#133

Post by humank » Sun, Dec 17, 2017, 4:21 PM UTC

xorcist wrote: post #109

insickness wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"A non-nerd reads it as: I want to kick out all X from tech. / I consider X inferior." I was out on an internet date with Scandinavian woman a few years ago. She was some type of sociological researcher, which interested me. I told her that part of the discrepancy in representation between genders in tech could be biologically oriented and she immediately said, "I don't want to hear arguments from biology!" She said…

> It's as if once we allow these facts into the argument, Right, facts. Most of the biological arguments are very touchy-feely. But .. we can see differences in MRI between gays and straights (or men and women, or some other divide du jour)! That's to be expected. Unless your equipment is broken. But the facts that patterns in the brain has established doesn't tell us anything how, or why, they developed. Scan a prof…

"does that mean black people are more suited to be piano players"

Maybe I'm misunderstanding things, but if some statistical factor was identified with predictive power, does that not literally mean that generally they'd be more suited to be piano players?

This isn't some argument about philosophically what constitutes a piano player. If this were true, you'd expect on average that this group has a higher proportion of piano players, and you could say heuristically that, yes, they are more suited to be piano players.

Caveat: this does not necessarily mean you should base decisions solely off of whether they belong to the group, as it depends on how strong said predictor actually is.

Re: What People Think You Can’t Say in Silicon Valley

#134

Post by thuris » Sun, Dec 17, 2017, 4:27 PM UTC

Age discrimination did not make the list. Maybe the survey poster's audience is not affected by it or maybe it's not controversial to admit that it is common practice.

Re: What People Think You Can’t Say in Silicon Valley

#135

Post by pas » Sun, Dec 17, 2017, 4:36 PM UTC

geff82 wrote: post #95

Interesting thing is about gender and technology jobs. In „evil“ Iran, about 50% of students of computer science are women. Being a female software developer is common. Cousin of my wife is a programmer, another female friend of the family is a IBM mainframe programmer(now retired), my wife is an engineer with interest in computer science. So its not all about „brain structures“, it is about society. When Iran can do…

http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/07/contra-grant-on-exagger... - in particular see Iran vs Sweden, how more egalitarian cultures show more gender difference for occupations

Re: What People Think You Can’t Say in Silicon Valley

#136

Post by cowpig » Sun, Dec 17, 2017, 5:15 PM UTC

malmsteen wrote: post #126

cowpig wrote: post #9

It's funny, I don't see it on the list but by far the biggest taboo in SV in my experience is talking about things going badly. You're doing great, killing it even, or you should keep it to yourself.

I don't know if it's really specific to startup. In life in general no one cares about you and people tend to avoid you if it's going badly (except very close friends).

Well, I grew up in NYC where sarcasm and cynicism reign supreme. SV culture is really jarring.

Re: What People Think You Can’t Say in Silicon Valley

#137

Post by Aloha » Sun, Dec 17, 2017, 5:16 PM UTC

aaron-lebo wrote: post #16

Aloha wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is key. In the south (and other places) you're more apt to spot people who have deep bias against people for intrinsic things - in the North (including CA, and Northwest) those ideas are so completely unacceptable, that those people never get called out on them.

How did you write that without realizing how oxymoronic it is? Were you trying to be an example of: "people who have deep bias against people for intrinsic things"? Besides your suggestion that prejudice doesn't exist in the north (lol), you're writing from the Pacific Northwest, one of the least diverse places in the country. Oregon is 83% white; Texas hasn't been that white since 1970, currently 45% non-Hispanic wh…

You misinterpret what I'm saying.

I'm arguing that people who are biased is a constant - but in parts of the south its more culturally acceptable to be open about it.

The way to end bias like this is by direct, constant exposure, as in interpersonal relationships with people who are different from you in; race, sexual orientation, or socioeconomic background.

When you create a culture where people who are biased do not expose themselves, their perspectives will never ever be changed.

Re: What People Think You Can’t Say in Silicon Valley

#138

Post by Aloha » Sun, Dec 17, 2017, 5:19 PM UTC

briandear wrote: post #17

Aloha wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is key. In the south (and other places) you're more apt to spot people who have deep bias against people for intrinsic things - in the North (including CA, and Northwest) those ideas are so completely unacceptable, that those people never get called out on them.

Citation needed. Are you going to argue that there is more racism in a Texas company than a California company? You are really going to have to prove that. Have you ever actually lived in a city such as Houston? One of the most diverse cities in the country. Look how segregated Silicon Valley is. Cupertino and Saratoga Schools are —- about 80% Asian and 2% black. How is that possible given that racism is a “completel…

You misinterpret what I'm saying.

I'm arguing that people who are biased is a constant - but in the south its more culturally acceptable to be open about it. The way to end bias like this is by direct, constant exposure, as in interpersonal relationships with people who are different from you in; race, sexual orientation, or socioeconomic background.

When you create a culture where people who are biased do not expose themselves, their perspectives will never ever be changed.

Your final sentence raises exactly the point I was trying to make - you need a 'marketplace of ideas' to change anyones mind about anything - monocultures do not change minds - they just drive those who disagree underground, and if anything give those who disagree a persecution complex, and subtly reinforce their views.

Re: What People Think You Can’t Say in Silicon Valley

#139

Post by Aloha » Sun, Dec 17, 2017, 5:20 PM UTC

Mithaldu wrote: post #122

johnny22 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

not touching the actual issue of racists in the south, but do most people consider Texas the south? I never have. I never think of Florida either (although north Florida is a lot closer to what i think of when I think of the south).

As a person outside the USA my perception is: Texas is part of the South. Rich white south instead of rednecks, but definitely South.

I'd argue that east texas is part of the south - but west and north texas are their own animals - because of this, Texas as a whole is its own animal.

Re: What People Think You Can’t Say in Silicon Valley

#140

Post by Aloha » Sun, Dec 17, 2017, 5:21 PM UTC

wwweston wrote: post #33

aaron-lebo wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did you write that without realizing how oxymoronic it is? Were you trying to be an example of: "people who have deep bias against people for intrinsic things"? Besides your suggestion that prejudice doesn't exist in the north (lol), you're writing from the Pacific Northwest, one of the least diverse places in the country. Oregon is 83% white; Texas hasn't been that white since 1970, currently 45% non-Hispanic wh…

The assertion seems to be that racism -- perhaps even a specific manifestation of racism -- is more prevalent in the south than in other areas of the country. Not that everyone in the south is racist , or that everyone in the north isn't. Perhaps you would like it if even this more carefully worded thing was something people didn't say. If so, it'd probably be interesting to unpack why. Also, I'm not sure that geogra…

yes, this - I'm actually advocating that racism in the north, northwest, and west is even more harmful, because those who are in the minority can't take any mitigation steps to deal with those who have bias.