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Inside China's Vast New Experiment in Social Ranking

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Re: Inside China's Vast New Experiment in Social Ranking

#41
post #8

Obligatory reference to Black Mirror's Nosedive episode: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosedive

Whilst real world events have caused many people to focus on the social ranking aspect of the story, when I watched it, I thought it was more concerned with privilege (and the loss thereof).

The main character actually worsens her fate by acting entitled and being self-centered. Had she maintained her higher status, she both wouldn't have been in situations of pain in the first place, nor found it necessary to make a (here, social) effort to get out of them. In real life, being considerate to people serving you pays off in the short term, and in aggregate makes for a better society to live in (it is generally accepted in Western society that insulting your waiter is really rude and antisocial, for example).

Interestingly, both people with low rankings (brother, truck driver) appear to have bad manners (because they are direct) but are nice people deep down; the point being the rating system is imperfectly implemented or optimising for the wrong thing.

The parallel with the Chinese rating breaks down precisely because the show rating is focused on this shallow idea of visible manners whilst the Chinese system appears to correct fundamentally inconsiderate, widespread behaviour (like stealing a shared bike), just as credit scoring in the West was originally a means of increasing general welfare (by lowering rates for most at the expense of the few who game the system).

The real parallel between the article and Black Mirror is this: the author, who is privileged (he already lives in a considerate society where everybody cooperates and the rule of law is a given) cannot understand the need for Sesame; upon losing that privilege (by moving to China with a blank score) and having to earn it back, he is upset just as the heroine of the episode was ("but I'm an honest guy, why should I pay a deposit to rent a bike?").

Re: Inside China's Vast New Experiment in Social Ranking

#42

This smells like the Cultural Revolution. Scary.

I don't see any similarity.

The article points this out specifically:

>"To understand the allure that social engineering holds for Chinese leaders, you have to go back decades, to long before apps and big data. In the years after the 1949 Communist Revolution, the government assigned everyone to local work units, which became the locus of surveillance and control. Individuals spied on their neighbors while also doing everything they could to avoid black marks on their own dang’an, or government files. But maintaining the system required massive state effort and oversight. As economic reforms in the 1980s led millions of people to leave their villages and migrate to cities, the work unit system fell apart. Migration also had a secondary effect: Cities filled up with strangers and pianzi."

Re: Inside China's Vast New Experiment in Social Ranking

#43
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not prejudice. And big surprise, you're exactly like me, just unwilling to vocalize it. The fact that people are rushing to downvote me for voicing a contrary opinion (and emboldening others to disagree and downvoting me too) is the exact embodiment of what I just described. Like it or not, human beings don't like outsiders and people that others dislike

Yes. We already have a silent score we give to people in our minds based on how much conformity is shared. It’s instinctually hardwired in to us.

Sure, and it is that generally harmful impulse that probably inspired the creation of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rwsuXHA7RA

Re: Inside China's Vast New Experiment in Social Ranking

#44
post #40
post #36

The fact that they're doing this and the fact they're actively trying to export their political ideology via their Confucius institutes, etc. terrifies me. As China's influence grows, I worry they may make implementing similar systems of condition of doing business with them and that developing countries (in Africa especially) who are becoming increasingly reliant upon China for development funding, will lack the pow…

That political ideology is not particular to China. Suppression of political consent and overall increasing control are natural tendencies of government. People can be put on a list in the US for example and exempted from flying anywhere.

Did you mean 'dissent'?

Re: Inside China's Vast New Experiment in Social Ranking

#45
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see any similarity.

The article points this out specifically: >"To understand the allure that social engineering holds for Chinese leaders, you have to go back decades, to long before apps and big data. In the years after the 1949 Communist Revolution, the government assigned everyone to local work units, which became the locus of surveillance and control. Individuals spied on their neighbors while also doing everything they could to av…

I don't see any references to Cultural Revolution in that quote?

Re: Inside China's Vast New Experiment in Social Ranking

#46
post #9

How much of this is happening in the US already, but without our knowledge -- unless of course someone steals it and we read about it here. It all sounds so convenient, yet at the same time I see where it will eventually wind up, as a new kind of slavery.

This is similar to the "like graph" in FB.

FB definitively know a lot folks' "political leaning" base everyone's "likes" in global scale and has profit from the info in the last elections.

Re: Inside China's Vast New Experiment in Social Ranking

#47
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That political ideology is not particular to China. Suppression of political consent and overall increasing control are natural tendencies of government. People can be put on a list in the US for example and exempted from flying anywhere.

Did you mean 'dissent'?

Right. Stupid autocorrect.

Re: Inside China's Vast New Experiment in Social Ranking

#48
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article points this out specifically: >"To understand the allure that social engineering holds for Chinese leaders, you have to go back decades, to long before apps and big data. In the years after the 1949 Communist Revolution, the government assigned everyone to local work units, which became the locus of surveillance and control. Individuals spied on their neighbors while also doing everything they could to av…

I don't see any references to Cultural Revolution in that quote?

I don't know your background, so I'm not sure if you're being coy or genuinely don't know. But the gist is: mass persecution, made possible by citizens spying on each other. OK fair, nobody has been singled out or publicly humiliated (yet), but it's the same setup. Forgive me if the Cultural Revolution means something different to you; I'm going based on the description given to me by one of my close friends, whose parents are from China and experienced it.

Re: Inside China's Vast New Experiment in Social Ranking

#49

We have private market ranking systems like your credit score. Quantifying karma is a good idea, if implemented correctly and within limitations of accuracy.

> Quantifying karma is a good idea Why? Many people hold many opinions about me, almost all of which are wrong. I don't see the value in a global database of opinions about me which I can't control and which will affect me in ways I can't predict.

If you can’t understand the utility of a social karma system then you should probably ignore all airbnb reviews, amazon, and totten tomato reviews when making a decision, and give them all a clean slate.

It’s hard to argue those systems are not useful if implemented properly. Yes it can lead to prejudice if done improperly, and some prejudice is unavoidable (the whole point of the review is to do a lot prejudging for you to save time) to save on time and effort.

Re: Inside China's Vast New Experiment in Social Ranking

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Quantifying karma is a good idea Why? Many people hold many opinions about me, almost all of which are wrong. I don't see the value in a global database of opinions about me which I can't control and which will affect me in ways I can't predict.

If you can’t understand the utility of a social karma system then you should probably ignore all airbnb reviews, amazon, and totten tomato reviews when making a decision, and give them all a clean slate. It’s hard to argue those systems are not useful if implemented properly. Yes it can lead to prejudice if done improperly, and some prejudice is unavoidable (the whole point of the review is to do a lot prejudging for…

> you should probably ignore all airbnb reviews, amazon, and totten tomato reviews when making a decision

Those are reviews of businesses and products, not individuals. It's not equivalent.

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