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Inside China's Vast New Experiment in Social Ranking

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Re: Inside China's Vast New Experiment in Social Ranking

#11

Post by solidsnack9000 »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #5
mythrwy wrote: post #2

As alarming as this is (and it is alarming) at least it's explicit. Another worrisome case is of blacklists/rankings that you can't see. No-fly lists that no one knows why you are on. Secret watch lists. Conspiracies against people with opposing political views with no clear way to know what views may have triggered this and no path to straighten a misunderstanding up. I oppose oppression in all forms but if we are g…

Note that if you are on the bad credit list, you aren’t allowed to fly or take the train. I guess this is so you can’t flee from your debts.

You might be able to take the train or fly, but only with the lowest class of seats. There might be something punitive in this, but another aspect of it is that you don't want to sell expensive things to people with bad credit.

There are myriad ways people try to get out of paying for things -- returning them, cancelling last minute, filing complaints -- that leave the merchant holding the bag even after a sale is seemingly complete.

Re: Inside China's Vast New Experiment in Social Ranking

#13

Post by mindslight »

coldcode wrote: post #9

How much of this is happening in the US already, but without our knowledge -- unless of course someone steals it and we read about it here. It all sounds so convenient, yet at the same time I see where it will eventually wind up, as a new kind of slavery.

Well, the new version of slavery was widespread credit - a continuum rather than discrete, with every interaction being a purported choice of assent (easy) or rejection (hard). The big-picture trend is clear, yet we mostly cling to the self-lie that we've voluntarily accepted this system.

The commercial surveillance enabling this has been with us a long time, long enough that people working in that industry casually refer to their databases' keys as a person's identity! The recent innovations in commercial surveillance just make it harder to run away and start fresh, while enabling more efficient extraction through fine-grained price discrimination.

Re: Inside China's Vast New Experiment in Social Ranking

#15

Post by QAPereo »

mindslight wrote: post #13
coldcode wrote: post #9

How much of this is happening in the US already, but without our knowledge -- unless of course someone steals it and we read about it here. It all sounds so convenient, yet at the same time I see where it will eventually wind up, as a new kind of slavery.

Well, the new version of slavery was widespread credit - a continuum rather than discrete, with every interaction being a purported choice of assent (easy) or rejection (hard). The big-picture trend is clear, yet we mostly cling to the self-lie that we've voluntarily accepted this system. The commercial surveillance enabling this has been with us a long time, long enough that people working in that industry casually…

More like indentured servitude; the “new” slavery is in prison labor.

Re: Inside China's Vast New Experiment in Social Ranking

#16

Post by dsfyu404ed »

coldcode wrote: post #9

How much of this is happening in the US already, but without our knowledge -- unless of course someone steals it and we read about it here. It all sounds so convenient, yet at the same time I see where it will eventually wind up, as a new kind of slavery.

>How much of this is happening in the US already, but without our knowledge

Probably a lot. My cousin (Nth generation rich white dude) took a class (at an ivy league school) on the more technical side of terrorism where the professor outright told them that the research they would need to do to get a good grade they would result in them getting a lot more "random" searches at airports and the like. He said other students confirmed that statement (I don't think he had had occasion to travel via air between taking the class and our conversation).

Re: Inside China's Vast New Experiment in Social Ranking

#17

Post by usaar333 »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #5
mythrwy wrote: post #2

As alarming as this is (and it is alarming) at least it's explicit. Another worrisome case is of blacklists/rankings that you can't see. No-fly lists that no one knows why you are on. Secret watch lists. Conspiracies against people with opposing political views with no clear way to know what views may have triggered this and no path to straighten a misunderstanding up. I oppose oppression in all forms but if we are g…

Note that if you are on the bad credit list, you aren’t allowed to fly or take the train. I guess this is so you can’t flee from your debts.

The article discusses two things:

> Sesame Credit, controlled by a private organization (Alipay)

> The government's List of Dishonest People, a blacklist of people who haven't paid fines.

(The article conflates them because the Sesame Credit scores are downgraded based on whether the person has unpaid fines. However, Sesame Credit doesn't affect the government list)

The "credit" list has no impact on trains/flying; nonpaying of government fines does. This isn't too dissimilar from other countries, where failing to pay government-issued fines results in disciplinary measures.

Re: Inside China's Vast New Experiment in Social Ranking

#18

Post by volgo »

clouddrover wrote: post #7
chrischen wrote: post #3

We have private market ranking systems like your credit score. Quantifying karma is a good idea, if implemented correctly and within limitations of accuracy.

> Quantifying karma is a good idea Why? Many people hold many opinions about me, almost all of which are wrong. I don't see the value in a global database of opinions about me which I can't control and which will affect me in ways I can't predict.

I'd find that helpful. If a lot of people have negative opinion about you, you have no place in my life, sorry. I don't want to deal with some society outsider

Re: Inside China's Vast New Experiment in Social Ranking

#19

Post by ygaf »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #16
coldcode wrote: post #9

How much of this is happening in the US already, but without our knowledge -- unless of course someone steals it and we read about it here. It all sounds so convenient, yet at the same time I see where it will eventually wind up, as a new kind of slavery.

>How much of this is happening in the US already, but without our knowledge Probably a lot. My cousin (Nth generation rich white dude) took a class (at an ivy league school) on the more technical side of terrorism where the professor outright told them that the research they would need to do to get a good grade they would result in them getting a lot more "random" searches at airports and the like. He said other stud…

Interesting price to pay for taking a class, is it part of any particular degree? On the other hand I guess you really get to learn how your government watches you.

Re: Inside China's Vast New Experiment in Social Ranking

#20

Post by whytaka »

volgo wrote: post #18
clouddrover wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Quantifying karma is a good idea Why? Many people hold many opinions about me, almost all of which are wrong. I don't see the value in a global database of opinions about me which I can't control and which will affect me in ways I can't predict.

I'd find that helpful. If a lot of people have negative opinion about you, you have no place in my life, sorry. I don't want to deal with some society outsider

I believe that is called prejudice. Prejudiced people frighten me, their moral considerations so unthorough, and this makes me think I wouldn’t want to deal with someone like you.

But I’d give you a chance first.

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