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Stuff You Can't Say in Silicon Valley

elaineou.com

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Re: Stuff You Can't Say in Silicon Valley

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Silenced” here means any manner of active suppression (shaming, ridiculing, verbal abuse, social bullying, even physical violence, etc) of an idea, rather than simply (1) ignoring it on a personal level, or (2) responding to it with argument via evidence and reason. If an idea we disagree with is rare or harmless, we often ignore it. If an idea we disagree with is more common and worth refuting, we should respond to…

Rational argument doesn't scale, bots and memes scale. Blocklists do scale, and it's only because identity platforms (fb, twitter) are also locked down content control platforms that we haven't seen more global blocklists. I fully expect decentralised social behaviour blocklists to emerge in the near future. Who would want to (employ/socialise with/do business with) a (trumptard/libtard)? Why take the risk of employi…

Rational argument is difficult to scale (certainly more so than memes and propaganda bots), but not impossible. Real social progress takes real work, but it’s worth it.

Your last two paragraphs sound an awful lot like the book 1984. If you haven’t read it, I recommend you check it out.

Re: Stuff You Can't Say in Silicon Valley

#232
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the usual reasons: user flags, software, and a moderation penalty. The latter can vary in weight but at the moment is a small downweight applied to follow-up discussions that don't contain significant new information. The software involved is HN's flamewar detector a.k.a. overheated discussion detector. All of these are typical responses to articles with a large heat-to-substance ratio.

Huh, ok. Thanks for quick answer. Edit: Looks like you edited your answer to include flamewar info. That makes a ton of sense.

Sorry for the edit on the fly! You responded fast to my fast response.

Re: Stuff You Can't Say in Silicon Valley

#233
post #90

I stopped reading here: “If San Francisco residents really believed that sea levels were rising, they’d have all sold their homes by now.” Apparently the author has never been to San Francisco or seen the sea level estimates for the next 30-70 years. The last time I looked the northernmost and easternmost parts of SF will have some trouble, but by far the biggest areas of concern are east of 101 south of the city. An…

An overwhelming sense of relief washes over me as I read your comment. It's obvious the author of the article doesn't know what the fuck she's talking about.

Re: Stuff You Can't Say in Silicon Valley

#234
post #183
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the usual reasons: user flags, software, and a moderation penalty. The latter can vary in weight but at the moment is a small downweight applied to follow-up discussions that don't contain significant new information. The software involved is HN's flamewar detector a.k.a. overheated discussion detector. All of these are typical responses to articles with a large heat-to-substance ratio.

Would you mind expanding on why the article has been flagged and removed from HN? The number of comments and upvotes suggests that the community is interested in discussing, so I am trying to understand better what is and is not acceptable at HN these days. I am sure others would appreciate transparency on this subject as well.

The article hasn't been removed from HN in any way. It's just lower in rank because that's what user flags do. I'll try to expand on this later but my phone just rang.

Edit: ok, it's a bit complicated because the influences of these factors are constantly varying, so giving you an accurate answer means sounding like I'm contradicting myself. But at present, the story's rank is only being affected by upvotes and user flags, not by the anti-flamewar software and not by moderation.

The tug-of-war between upvotes and flags on HN is the fundamental dynamic of how the community expresses what it wants. There's a balance between the two and it has worked this way for a long time. Sometimes upvotes get the upper hand, sometimes flags do. But it works the same way in every case, more or less. You're right that part of the community is interested in discussing the article, but then another part of the community feels otherwise. Both matter, and the community is rarely in agreement.

If you're in the camp that wants a particular article on the front page then obviously you will be tempted to conclude that the other camp is trying to suppress the topic, possibly with help from secretly-opposing-you mods. Usually this is not accurate—it just feels that way. In reality there are many more things that go on. One is that when a similar article has just recently been thoroughly discussed, the community's distaste for repetition kicks in. It isn't that people oppose the topic, it's that repetition is boring. In cases like that, we turn off the flags only if the article is unusually substantive or contains significant new information. I don't see that here.

Another factor is that if there weren't countervailing mechanisms like anti-flamewar software and moderation, attention would flow, every day, to the same few controversies that happen to be hot that day. Empirically, that's just what upvotes do. No one wants an HN that looks like that, and we need both software and moderation to actively prevent it. To have HN be HN—that is, a site about intellectual curiosity—the system can't be purely upvote-driven. From our point of view as moderators that's all we're doing: providing a systemic service. But from the point of view of people whose wishes about a particular article are thwarted, it feels like moderators are intellectually, politically, and even personally aligned against them. People notice the cases they dislike much more than all the times the roulette wheel comes out in their favor, so it's both easy and common to feel consistently aggrieved, yet still come back to the site every day. That's kind of weird if you think about it.

Re: Stuff You Can't Say in Silicon Valley

#235
post #88

This article seems to be debating an issue that doesn’t exist. It seems to call Ferriss for not speaking his mind, but I listened to the podcast referenced and it was one short statement amongst lots of other stuff. I would like to hear an entire podcast from Ferriss. But this author seems to criticize a Ferriss for not going into detail and that’s inappropriate. It would be valid if Ferriss left out these details in…

I posted Tim Ferriss direct words...He didn't leave out details.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15937836

Re: Stuff You Can't Say in Silicon Valley

#236

It should be noted that this article was posted a few weeks ago, and is not directly related to Sam Altman's recent (controversial) essay: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15924093

ugh I stopped reading after the first sentence:

"Earlier this year, I noticed something in China that really surprised me. I realized I felt more comfortable discussing controversial ideas in Beijing than in San Francisco."

I also feel comfortable speaking about controversial things foreign cultures would not have the appropriate context to judge, out of concern for being rude, culture value differences etc.

I'm losing a lot of respect lately as it turns out more and more people involved with YC seem somehow okay with Peter Thiel and Trump supporters. Even VICE for fucks sake (Gavin McInnes's all white trash fuck boys) etc.

Have a little respect for your country fellow Trump supporters!!! You have a fucking KGB puppet in charge! Actively working against the long term interests of your country who also happens to assault women, writes asinine shit and gets in the bed with the enemy.

that's enough anger seething...im just anxious that the US is veering off course and into a different beast that would allow more nastier beasts to come into power.

Re: Stuff You Can't Say in Silicon Valley

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of the opinions listed in this article are held by sometimes a majority of the population, so this is not about the rule of the many because if so you could legislate this and resolve it through the courts. As MLK said, you do not drive out darkness with darkness.

Those who decry darkness by the oppressed yet tolerate darkness by the dominant are not fit to quote MLK.

Our democracy is fragile and is not the default state of our society, and speech is central to democracy. I defend all sides right to speak and if appropriate advocate for a change of laws.

One of the last times this happened it was McCarthyism, and many communists and socialists had their freedom of speech taken away. However, that time it was done through the judicial system so this time is arguably more dangerous as it is done in an extrajudicial manner.

I think what you are arguing for is a non-inclusive society where democratic discourse is not possible, and where mob-rule is tolerated and rule of law is not expected.

Edit: I would like to point out that MLK was a strong believer in democracy and justice.

Re: Stuff You Can't Say in Silicon Valley

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a good point to bring up. I don't think those people were silenced. They went to a public protest in a public place to make a statement. That statement was broadcast across the country and the world. The opposite of being silenced. Now, they faced consequences for what they said. But that's what happens when you say things. Words have meaning and you can say words which will cause people to no longer want to a…

It is not just those people being silenced though. It is people who stayed home, maybe their views are not quite as radical as someone who would protest, or maybe they tend to be more politically apathetic (ie most people). When those people watch Fox News ( http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2017/08/14/twitter-users-identif... ) and see what is happening to those people for their speech and actions, they are being silenced…

When they are watching Fox they are not being silenced, they are being programmed. They start to believe they are being silenced, but their views are just being opposed and offended and that they are (at long last) being told that other people think their positions are discriminatory. And without the visible and palpable sense that their views are not mainstream any longer, what is their incentive to change?

Re: Stuff You Can't Say in Silicon Valley

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Voices are being silenced. I think we've got to be cautious in defining what "being silenced" means. Because I see a world in which people are saying all sorts of things out loud. There was a protest with a bunch of people waving Nazi flags in a public park in Virginia a few months ago. I don't think people are being silenced. I think community norms are shifting quickly in many parts of the country and, again, it'…

So Stanford Medical School should retract this article about the overwhelming evidence of the biologically based cognitive differences between men and women then? http://stanmed.stanford.edu/2017spring/how-mens-and-womens-b... Science Denialism is just the new community norm, I guess.

I'm just hoping that amateurs with agendas, trying to cherry pick studies with outcomes they like, is not seen as science. Because they are ones that seem like anti-vaxxers to me.
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