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Overcoming Us vs. Them

nautil.us

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Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#191

Post by programmarchy »

notduncansmith wrote: post #169
dwaltrip wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps we should come up with better methods that people can use to critique/improve their own epistemology as needed, and spread the idea that it is highly worthwhile to do so? The mindset that "realizing you are wrong" can be a joy, not something to fear. After reading Kuhn's "Structure of Scientific Revolutions", it seems to me this difficulty could also be described as people operating from different base layer…

This exactly. Critical thinking, psychology, and interpersonal communication (with emphasis on building shared understanding) need to be explicitly taught in schools. We already have children memorize state capitals: they can memorize cognitive biases, mental models, meta-models/heuristics, empathy/communication techniques, and the a basic explanation of the psychology/neuroscience that backs them up. This will allow…

People with sub-100 IQs are probably not going to be able to achieve the level of critical thinking you're talking about. There's a genetic component to that level of intelligence, and it's not an easy problem that can be solved by teaching people a few tips and tricks. On top of that, the public education system is not designed to produce critical thinking people, but rather people who can memorize and follow orders. Not that things can't ever change, but there's a lot more work to do than making a few tweaks to a curriculum.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#192

Post by dwaltrip »

nradov wrote: post #186
WalterSear wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except pragmatically, one is a conclusion based on observation and the other is driven by a willful need to make reality meet emotional needs. Religious people, by and large, do not respect observation as much as dogma. There's no commonality to be found with that.

It depends on the religion. The modern Catholic Church now accepts that evolution through natural selection occurs, and they no longer claim that the Earth was created in 6 days a few thousand years ago.

Is that an official position? I knew they were more accepting of it in general.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#193

Post by RonanTheGrey »

quantumofmalice wrote: post #181
guelo wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If states secede why not parts of a state? Why not cities? Why not neighborhoods. You're pretty much advocating the end of civilization and the return to tribal groupings. But tribal warfare was actually much more violent and unstable than the nation state.

That's a reductio ad absurdum. There are reasonable levels of division well above tribal levels. Singapore is basically a city state, and I don't notice a collapse of civilization there. Territories with strong social identity would maintain political union, territories with weak social identity and severe political disagreements would split. As much as is possible, no one is ruled by people they hate. https://en.wik…

I don't understand the downvoting of this comment. What is being described is effectively tribalism.

Tribalism worked well for humans for roughly 350,000 years. Then we idiots come along and think that we've got a better way that is already showing its weaknesses and strain after just a couple of thousand years. Really? Maybe, just maybe our ancestors were on to something and there's something we can learn from them. No that couldn't possibly be it.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#194

Post by Banthum »

dang wrote: post #161
Danihan wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even on YC. For a long while, you couldn't adopt any sort of conservative stance without a moderator (who is a self-admitted socialist on his startup bio) potentially banning you for being "inflammatory."

Unless I'm missing something that's not true at all. Who are you talking about? We ban accounts when they break the site rules at https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html . We don't ban people for ideological reasons. That has the ironic effect of leading most partisans to see us as secretly aligned with the opposite ideology, but what can you do.

I had an account before this one that was shadowbanned one day with no notification at all.

I hadn't broken any stated rules. I had posted some points about IQ, which would be considered offensive or "harmful" from the leftist viewpoints that dominate the San Francisco tech overculture.

Probably this rule was the excuse: "We ban accounts that use Hacker News primarily for political or ideological battle, regardless of which politics they favor."

However, it seems very unlikely that this rule is enforced in an even-handed manner.

Thankfully, I haven't had this account banned yet, which is nice at least. But it does happen.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#195

Post by dang »

Banthum wrote: post #194
dang wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless I'm missing something that's not true at all. Who are you talking about? We ban accounts when they break the site rules at https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html . We don't ban people for ideological reasons. That has the ironic effect of leading most partisans to see us as secretly aligned with the opposite ideology, but what can you do.

I had an account before this one that was shadowbanned one day with no notification at all. I hadn't broken any stated rules. I had posted some points about IQ, which would be considered offensive or "harmful" from the leftist viewpoints that dominate the San Francisco tech overculture. Probably this rule was the excuse: "We ban accounts that use Hacker News primarily for political or ideological battle, regardless o…

When people post comments like this they never supply links. Usually this is because what actually happened doesn't fit their narrative. What actually happened is almost always that they violated the site guidelines in a way that is plain to the majority of the audience here.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#197

Post by ewjordan »

jacobolus wrote: post #187
notduncansmith wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This exactly. Critical thinking, psychology, and interpersonal communication (with emphasis on building shared understanding) need to be explicitly taught in schools. We already have children memorize state capitals: they can memorize cognitive biases, mental models, meta-models/heuristics, empathy/communication techniques, and the a basic explanation of the psychology/neuroscience that backs them up. This will allow…

> they can memorize cognitive biases, mental models, meta-models/heuristics, empathy/communication techniques, and the a basic explanation of the psychology/neuroscience that backs them up. This will allow children to effectively deal with their own flaws, and those of others. This reads like a parody. Memorizing a list of definitions isn’t going to accomplish much of anything, any more than memorizing a list of equi…

Adults have trouble with all this stuff because mostly they don't learn it at all, even with a liberal arts education or any of the other things you mention. The entire rationalism movement is essentially founded based on the fact that ostensibly educated people don't realize how badly their brains work by default.

The greatest superpower we have as humans is that we have the ability to introspect, and second guess our immediate responses in light of what we've learned. That allows us to jump to conclusions much quicker on shoddy evidence, because we can course correct later as we gather more, and it's super effective as a learning strategy. Learning how to better correct our initial hypotheses helps us perform even better, but it requires us to actually study the things that humans tend to get wrong. Most education, professions, and life experiences do not support that goal, so it's an easy win if you go outside the system to do so.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#198

Post by notduncansmith »

jacobolus wrote: post #187
notduncansmith wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This exactly. Critical thinking, psychology, and interpersonal communication (with emphasis on building shared understanding) need to be explicitly taught in schools. We already have children memorize state capitals: they can memorize cognitive biases, mental models, meta-models/heuristics, empathy/communication techniques, and the a basic explanation of the psychology/neuroscience that backs them up. This will allow…

> they can memorize cognitive biases, mental models, meta-models/heuristics, empathy/communication techniques, and the a basic explanation of the psychology/neuroscience that backs them up. This will allow children to effectively deal with their own flaws, and those of others. This reads like a parody. Memorizing a list of definitions isn’t going to accomplish much of anything, any more than memorizing a list of equi…

I'm not trying to say that if they memorize some definitions they'll have a deep understanding of the human condition. I'm saying that by simply normalizing that level of analysis and understanding of human behavior, we can begin shaking off a lot of unproductive cultural baggage. It helps to know to categorize the ineffective behavior you experience as pathological as opposed to attribution to gender, race, religion, political persuasion, or other culturally-encouraged fallacies.

Also, it's not like being better able to understand people is an unattractive concept to kids: most of them naturally attempt to make sense of the world, and helping them internalize the completely natural multi-faceted fallibility of humans (including themselves) will pay off enormously in their future interactions with people.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#199

Post by jacobolus »

ewjordan wrote: post #197
jacobolus wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they can memorize cognitive biases, mental models, meta-models/heuristics, empathy/communication techniques, and the a basic explanation of the psychology/neuroscience that backs them up. This will allow children to effectively deal with their own flaws, and those of others. This reads like a parody. Memorizing a list of definitions isn’t going to accomplish much of anything, any more than memorizing a list of equi…

Adults have trouble with all this stuff because mostly they don't learn it at all, even with a liberal arts education or any of the other things you mention. The entire rationalism movement is essentially founded based on the fact that ostensibly educated people don't realize how badly their brains work by default. The greatest superpower we have as humans is that we have the ability to introspect, and second guess o…

Judging from the people I know who identify themselves with the “rationalism movement”, occasionally reading topical blog posts doesn’t inherently teach introspection (or even reasoning) any better than high school, though its adherents are pretty good at rattling off lists of logical fallacies and getting distracted by meta-arguments about which particular one applies in a given situation.

[Or by “rationalism movement” are you talking about, say, philosophy / sociology / anthropology / behavioral economics / history Ph.Ds or licensed psychiatrists? That would be something like the years of dedicated training I was talking about, though those fields have different modes of inquiry and different subjects of study, and some are surely better at reasoning / rhetoric / self reflection than others.]

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#200

Post by jacobolus »

notduncansmith wrote: post #198
jacobolus wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they can memorize cognitive biases, mental models, meta-models/heuristics, empathy/communication techniques, and the a basic explanation of the psychology/neuroscience that backs them up. This will allow children to effectively deal with their own flaws, and those of others. This reads like a parody. Memorizing a list of definitions isn’t going to accomplish much of anything, any more than memorizing a list of equi…

I'm not trying to say that if they memorize some definitions they'll have a deep understanding of the human condition. I'm saying that by simply normalizing that level of analysis and understanding of human behavior, we can begin shaking off a lot of unproductive cultural baggage. It helps to know to categorize the ineffective behavior you experience as pathological as opposed to attribution to gender, race, religion…

Sure, but the way you get there is by focused work for years and years, not memorizing a list of definitions.
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