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BitPay Will Process Payments on Multiple Blockchains, Starting with Bitcoin Cash

blog.bitpay.com

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Re: BitPay Will Process Payments on Multiple Blockchains, Starting with Bitcoin Cash

#71
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ARPANET refers to a specific network that was decommissioned in 1990. And for 13 years of it's 21 years in existence, it was using NCP rather than TCP/IP.

I worked at BBN Technologies in the early 2000's. I was always amazed at how a company that essentially co-founded the internet and had the second domain name ever registered[1] could basically go out of business. You just made me think that Bitcoin could definitely be the ARPANET of blockchains and Core devs could be BBN. Don't get me wrong, I worked with some extremely smart people, but in the end, Raytheon bought…

The difference of course, is that bitcoin isn't a company. And the arpanet turned into the internet. But companies come and go. By your analogy, raytheon owns the internet.

Re: BitPay Will Process Payments on Multiple Blockchains, Starting with Bitcoin Cash

#72
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see 3 scenarios right now: 1. Bitcoin + lighting network solves everything 2. Bitcoin's dominance ends and a more scalable payment-focused currency start to dominate (like Dash) 3. Bitcoin remains the main store of value, and people will convert some of their bitcoins to an altocin to do daily paymnt where there will be debates on the level of decentralization, but is designed to be extremely high (Visa level) tx/s…

> 1. Bitcoin + lighting network solves everything As far as I can tell, the Lightning Network's design isn't robust enough to solve everything. It allows for an arbitrary number of back-and-forth transactions between any two parties. It will be good, but it's not clear to me that this extends to solving all of the scalability problems.

I would suggest actually learning how it works before commenting on it.

Lightning allows users to take a single bitcoin transaction, and use it over a finite space of time, in order to shift bitcoin back and forth, with no or vanishingly small transaction fees, as iou's between what are called 'lightning channels'. The actual transaction size will be the same as a normal transaction, with a flag that says it can only be committed to the blockchain at a specific time (or block depth). In effect, these lightning transactions are cryptographically signed 'iou's. The 'thousands' of back-and-forth iou changes are discarded when the channel is closed (massive privacy dividend), and only the aggregated change is committed to the blockchain. This is the great thing about lightning. It is a single transaction with as many inputs and outputs (one/two) as defined in the original transaction. Only the transaction values change.

Consider a channel link of this : John->Bob->Sally->Anne. Only the people next to each other in the chain have a 'channel open' with each other (John/Bob, Bob/Sally, Sally/Anne). Assuming each of the channels between all of the participants have adequate funds in order to achieve this, if John wanted to send 1btc to Anne. A transaction ledger would read :

John->Bob channel : John -1btc, Bob +1btc

Bob->Sally channel : Bob -1btc, Sally +1btc

Sally->Anne channel : Sally -1btc, Anne +1btc.

Anne now has 1btc more, and John has 1btc less, but the net effect in each channel is simply a modification to the distribution of bitcoin in that channel.

Imagine this happening, back and forth, and extended to thousands, tens of thousands, and millions of people. As long as there's a chain between them, you use the chain. You might even have your transaction split over multiple chains. For links that don't have a chain, you create a channel on-the-fly.

Each channel, therefore, only ends up with the same single input, and the same two outputs, just differing values.

It's significantly more complex than that (transaction routing, and channel closure mechanics), but that's the idea. I wish I could remember the lightning dev that explained it. It really is very clever. I haven't actually questioned about the effect of having channels with multiple inputs (John/Sally) and outputs (Bob/Anne) at inception. Technically, I can't see any reason why this wouldn't be possible. Just a much weirder set of ramifications.

I would suggest that the method for creating ln channels is most likely : Carol wants to pay Bob 0.5btc. She creates a ln channel with 1btc, of which Bob is allocated 0.5btc, and carol is allocated 0.5btc. Bob gets paid 0.5btc that is accessible once confirmed. Carol has 0.5btc that is now accessible once confirmed. That way the ln can be bootstrapped by existing txns.

I'd also suggest that it would be easier to understand if Bob were Bob Inc. The incentive will be for the buyer to reduce txn fees. If Carol uses a store (coffee?) she will want to reduce paying those fees. So she creates a channel with 0.1btc and 0.001 is allocated to Bob Inc. For the coffee she buys today, coffee + txn fee. Ever more? Zippo txn fee. When your channel is almost zero, you buy bitcoin, it is delivered back to you by the rebalancing of that channel. And because it's Bob Inc the path through the channels from a source of bitcoin is reduced, maybe even two hops ( exchangeA/exchangeB -> exchangeB/Bob Inc. -> Bob Inc./Carol).

Re: BitPay Will Process Payments on Multiple Blockchains, Starting with Bitcoin Cash

#73
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see 3 scenarios right now: 1. Bitcoin + lighting network solves everything 2. Bitcoin's dominance ends and a more scalable payment-focused currency start to dominate (like Dash) 3. Bitcoin remains the main store of value, and people will convert some of their bitcoins to an altocin to do daily paymnt where there will be debates on the level of decentralization, but is designed to be extremely high (Visa level) tx/s…

> 1. Bitcoin + lighting network solves everything As far as I can tell, the Lightning Network's design isn't robust enough to solve everything. It allows for an arbitrary number of back-and-forth transactions between any two parties. It will be good, but it's not clear to me that this extends to solving all of the scalability problems.

Care to elaborate?

Re: BitPay Will Process Payments on Multiple Blockchains, Starting with Bitcoin Cash

#74

Fascinating how all the comments explaining that for fast and cheap transactions there is Litecoin (which has SegWit and Lightning) and pointing out BCash (still vulnerable to transaction malleability because it does not have SegWit) technical and governance problems immediately got downvoted into oblivion. Edit: including this comment.

Fascinating how all the "just use Litecoin" comments don't count the value of continuity of the UTXO set, etc.

Re: BitPay Will Process Payments on Multiple Blockchains, Starting with Bitcoin Cash

#75
post #52
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree that Segwit2x would have been good for BTC, it ultimately only kicks the can down the road a little bit. If BTC (or BCH) is going to be used at Visa/Mastercard scale then the transactions need to happen off-chain. The Lightning Network is the answer here, a lot of work still needs to be done though, particularly on the software side.

We could start using 'Side chains' today you might as well just create a bitcoin bank where everyone has an account hmmm hmm i mean a channel and all transactions can happen on your bank network and not on the blockchain. See i solved the problem. But first i need to convince everyone to use my side network, sooo if the main blockchain is like a stream what i need is for this stream to be blocked so that i can channe…

This half-assed analogy falls apart under cursory examination; Lightning isn’t anything like a banking system because you have to trust banks and you don’t have to trust Lightning counterparties.

Re: BitPay Will Process Payments on Multiple Blockchains, Starting with Bitcoin Cash

#76
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see 3 scenarios right now: 1. Bitcoin + lighting network solves everything 2. Bitcoin's dominance ends and a more scalable payment-focused currency start to dominate (like Dash) 3. Bitcoin remains the main store of value, and people will convert some of their bitcoins to an altocin to do daily paymnt where there will be debates on the level of decentralization, but is designed to be extremely high (Visa level) tx/s…

> 1. Bitcoin + lighting network solves everything As far as I can tell, the Lightning Network's design isn't robust enough to solve everything. It allows for an arbitrary number of back-and-forth transactions between any two parties. It will be good, but it's not clear to me that this extends to solving all of the scalability problems.

What you're describing is a payment channel. The Lightning Network is that _plus_ protocols for negotiating the routing and chaining of payments across multiple channels.

Re: BitPay Will Process Payments on Multiple Blockchains, Starting with Bitcoin Cash

#77

Fascinating how all the comments explaining that for fast and cheap transactions there is Litecoin (which has SegWit and Lightning) and pointing out BCash (still vulnerable to transaction malleability because it does not have SegWit) technical and governance problems immediately got downvoted into oblivion. Edit: including this comment.

There is a LOT of money being invested to make BCash appear legit.

One bit I noticed was this address -- https://bitinfocharts.com/bitcoin%20cash/address/19hZx234vNt... which has been quietly accumulating (yet never spending) a massive amount of BCH. My best guess is this is bitmain accumulating part of their mining proceeds, but isolating it away to create artificial scarcity to inflate the price. (That's just one of a bunch of similar addresses).

They sort of depend on keeping the price inflated; because without that, their difficulty would adjust & drop to the point where a 51% attack was actually feasible. Per https://fork.lol/security/fork it would only take 50 days for 25% of the BTC hashrate to remine the entire BCH fork, undoing any BCH transactions the miner might have made.

It's an incredibly shaky coin in a large number of ways.

Re: BitPay Will Process Payments on Multiple Blockchains, Starting with Bitcoin Cash

#78

It seems clear to me at this point that the cryptocurrency revolution is now bigger than Bitcoin itself. Years ago, I saw three long-term outcomes: Bitcoin being king and altcoins dying on the vine, Bitcoin being one of innumerable blockchains in use, and cryptocurrencies in general failing to gain adoption. I'm scratching the first outcome off the list, and my pen is hovering over the last outcome.

Given the growth in transaction volume, it's pretty clear to me it will be the second, or possibly Ethereum will take the role of Bitcoin and fulfil the first: https://etherscan.io/chart/tx

Eth nodes are a quarter of what they were nine months ago. Most people can't even sync a node anymore. None of this is a surprise. This is exactly the outcome expected with unrestrained blockchain expansion. Bitcoin is about decentralization. Every other altcoin, it would seem, is about trying to invent an inefficient paypal.

Re: BitPay Will Process Payments on Multiple Blockchains, Starting with Bitcoin Cash

#79
post #28
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree that Segwit2x would have been good for BTC, it ultimately only kicks the can down the road a little bit. If BTC (or BCH) is going to be used at Visa/Mastercard scale then the transactions need to happen off-chain. The Lightning Network is the answer here, a lot of work still needs to be done though, particularly on the software side.

This is the major (technical - plenty of political issues) problem I have with Bcash. It’s cheap and fast because transaction volumes, and price, are 10% of BTC, yet blocks are 1.5x the size (roughly, looking at a block explorer). As soon as they fill up, they’ll have the exact same problems down the line. Increasing the block size doesn’t scale long term and is a bandaid solution at best. BTC was fast and cheap when…

Why do some people call Bitcoin Cash "Bcash?" It seems to accompany critical statements. I'll assume you're not doing it to save 6 letters, because later you refer to Bitcoin as BTC. You could have saved more letters by referring to Bitcion Cash at BCH. Is this a campaign to rebrand Bitcoin Cash as something other than a Bitcoin fork?

Re: BitPay Will Process Payments on Multiple Blockchains, Starting with Bitcoin Cash

#80

The article sounds like a propaganda for BCash. For common peoples information, BCash is supported by chinese miners, Satoshi Nakamoto impersonator, a convict named Roger and other types of dubious characters.

How are Chinese miners dubious characters? Also, Roger Ver got convicted of selling varmint-grade firecrackers on eBay. Who cares.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Roger_Ver#Explosives_vs_f...

'As for fireworks vs explosives, the current limit on firecracker size in the US is 50mg of flash powder. The "Pest Control Report 2000" was 1000mg'

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