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Overcoming Us vs. Them

nautil.us

161–170 of 249 posts

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Citation needed James Damore was fired from Google for posting his opinion to a mailing list about the topic in question. Brendan Eich was forced out of Mozilla for voting the “wrong” way years earlier. Look into “opal-gate” or “dongle-gate”. Look into Strange Loop banning speakers. The threat of being fired or hurt professionally for not being left leaning is very real. EDIT: My comment providing the requested cit…

Even on YC. For a long while, you couldn't adopt any sort of conservative stance without a moderator (who is a self-admitted socialist on his startup bio) potentially banning you for being "inflammatory."

Unless I'm missing something that's not true at all. Who are you talking about?

We ban accounts when they break the site rules at https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. We don't ban people for ideological reasons. That has the ironic effect of leading most partisans to see us as secretly aligned with the opposite ideology, but what can you do.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#162
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sapolsky is just arguing for us to understand each other a little bit more, recognize unconscious biases, and move towards judging one another on individual merits rather than groupthink. These are basic free-society, founding fathers kind of ideals. I think you're projecting modern (maybe justified) worries onto these old and common ideals. > and then LITERALLY ARGUES FOR an us and them attitude :| I'll argue that h…

OK, but look at the context - out of nowhere we have obvious diversity at all costs propaganda. I'm watching the BBC's Christmas trailer now which involves a brown skinned single father and his daughter. This in no way represents the average in the UK in fact the UK is almost 90% white - so what message is the BBC trying to send? Am I one of the bad guys to recognise the colour of the skin? Because you can bet that w…

>This in no way represents the average in the UK in fact the UK is almost 90% white - so what message is the BBC trying to send?

"Hey brown people. You're not being completely ignored by our society. When we have to make decisions based on arbitrary characteristics like race, we prefer to occasional choose people you might be able to relate to on the bases of colour, rather than trying to appeal to some obviously incorrect notion that we should only relate to 'the average UK citizen' (which doesn't exist)."

Or maybe those actors just worked best? Or maybe they drew straws. Either way, there's no reason to believe that the skin colour of the actors on your screen is some kind of manipulation/propaganda against you. That's an irrational leap.

>Am I one of the bad guys to recognise the colour of the skin?

No. You're one of the bad guys for failing to recognize that the colour of the skin is an arbitrary choice and thus not relevant. The only thing about a person you should consider relevant is their ability to make good decisions.

The BBC will not occupy any moral high ground by using only white actors. (Which is what you're saying they should do, on account of some frankly stupid appeal to 'averages.' The 'average' UK citizen is riddled with disease and missing most of their limbs. So maybe don't try to tacitly substitute 'average' for 'ideal/typical/most common'. And why does the BBC has any obligation to represent any of these anyway?)

Maybe that's a harsh-seeming way of putting it, but that's the logical alternative you imply by using crappy metrics.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#163

Wow, liberal fascism distilled, pretty much a call to arms for the destruction of individual cultures and global imposition of wrongthink. South Park's Death Camp of Tolerance comes to mind. I await the introduction of the reeducation gulags. Edit: I'm just amazed that people cannot see this guy is blantantly arguing for the exact thing he claims to despise: 'Meanwhile, give the right-of-way to people driving cars wi…

Since we've asked you repeatedly not to take HN threads into ideological flamewar, and you're still doing it, I've banned this account. We also ban accounts that use HN primarily for political battle, which you have. Given that your profile references "things geospatial" and not "liberal fascism" I'm sorta sad about that, but a fireman must do his job.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you adhere to the view that Nobody Is Truly Bad I do. It is their actions and ideas that are bad. Even if you do not agree with me, I think it is important to show others trust until you have a real reason not to. What the "Us vs. Them" attitude does is ignore the potential for people in the "Them" group to have anything of value to the "Us" group, or the potential for both groups to work together.

OK, but I'm talking about those cases where people have already provided reasons not to trust them. And I don't mean people who are affiliated with their group by default, such as people who happen to have been born in North Korea and whose opposition to the United States is thus an inherited position, but people who choose to affiliate with other actors. Put another way, sure, people are products of their circumstan…

> OK, but I'm talking about those cases where people have already provided reasons not to trust them.

That's perfectly reasonable.

I was still focused on the "Us vs. Them" attitude, which doesn't apply here.

If you haven't met or interacted with someone, but you choose to categorize that person in the "Them" group, that is unreasonable.

It can be tricky when individuals seem to put themselves in your "Them" group. When that happens, it's probably a good idea to stop, and take care to define what "Them" entails, and how that individual fits there. If you don't, that person may be unjustly labeled by you, and you by them.

When we label each other, and create meta-groups to dislike, that creates a divide that isn't helpful for either side, because each side is mischaracterized, and all nuance is ignored.

> until they abandon such choices

My advice is to be careful not to judge others solely by the things you dislike about them. The details you focus on are not the entirety of their character.

If someone only finds friendship in a group that promotes ideas that you are opposed to, that person is likely to promote those ideas. If you befriend that person, you can begin on common ground, and work together toward ideas that you agree to be worthwhile. That person will thereby have less focus on the idea you don't like.

None of us is perfect, and we can certainly all find faults in one another. If we all reject others for the faults we find in them, we will all be rejected.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#165
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Political power does seem to be one, and it's a pretty pervasive and contagious one.

I think political power varies widely from negative-sum to positive-sum, depending on the circumstances.

Exactly. It is nuch more nuanced and dynamical.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it obviously a technology problem?

I'd say technology is a contributing factor but obviously not the only one.

I think this is like saying gasoline was a contributing factor to a house fire. Social media and its constant bombardment of drama, stress, and politics has done more to amplify divisions within our country than anything ever before seen in the world.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unity against a common enemy has historically put an end to such internal strife. The Second World War wiped away domestic conflicts in the face of an existential threat, and gave a generation of men so much valor as to put them beyond reproach. It was unthinkable to target the men of the Greatest Generation with the kind of attacks and vicious reporting we are used to today, whether they deserved it or not. Edit: I'…

>The Second World War wiped away domestic conflicts in the face of an existential threat, and gave a generation of men so much valor as to put them beyond reproach. This comment is ignorant of the reality of black military members, both during the war and after.

> This comment is ignorant of the reality of black military members

Sure, but the major internal strife within America in the late 20's wasn't based upon race, but upon economics and inequality. Just because it didn't remove _all_ strife within an entire nation(which will never happen) doesn't mean that it didn't smoothe things over for most Americans.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#168

The more people I meet, the more I realize there is no "them", only us, us, and more of us.

Yet there are differences between people, and between groups of people. Different cultures have different values, and social pressures push those values onto those around them. It's important to recognize those differences.

For example, I recognize that Nazis are people too, but that doesn't mean that I want to support them in our society.

If we can determine that Nazis are bad due to their toxic culture, then that shows that certain cultures are bad. Where do we draw the line? How do we determine what cultures are good and what aren't?

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#169

This would be easier if We and Them simply differed in arbitrary preferences. But I fear that when We and Them disagree on basic epistemology, we simply sound crazy to each other. And this irreconcilable difference, if it exists, will eventually always come out if you talk long enough.

Perhaps we should come up with better methods that people can use to critique/improve their own epistemology as needed, and spread the idea that it is highly worthwhile to do so? The mindset that "realizing you are wrong" can be a joy, not something to fear. After reading Kuhn's "Structure of Scientific Revolutions", it seems to me this difficulty could also be described as people operating from different base layer…

This exactly. Critical thinking, psychology, and interpersonal communication (with emphasis on building shared understanding) need to be explicitly taught in schools. We already have children memorize state capitals: they can memorize cognitive biases, mental models, meta-models/heuristics, empathy/communication techniques, and the a basic explanation of the psychology/neuroscience that backs them up. This will allow children to effectively deal with their own flaws, and those of others. Combining that with practical online/offline research skills and more hands-on experience of macro/microeconomics would leave children much more equipped to deeply and intuitively understand people and the world.

It's definitely not beyond their capacity either, all children figure out a smattering of these for themselves anyways, they just don't learn the names. Even the rather sharp ones only have a few more, or maybe one especially-honed one, but that's all it takes to make a big difference.

"A change in perspective is worth 80 IQ points" - Alan Kay

As an aside, children that develop significantly advantageous models early on often end up over-relying on them later, another potential-wasting issue we could avoid by making those children aware of what's going on in their brains.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#170

I think this is going to be the next big challenge in social tech: Contact: The consequences of growing up amid diversity just discussed bring us to the effects of prolonged contact on Us/Theming. In the 1950s the psychologist Gordon Allport proposed “contact theory.” Inaccurate version: bring Us-es and Thems together (say, teenagers from two hostile nations in a summer camp), animosities disappear, similarities star…

One interesting thing I took away from the article - most of the scientific evidence cited by Professor Sapolsky is built on fMRI analysis of reactions to faces.

Given that most of our online interactions are completely text-based, what cues are we using to determine if someone is Us or Them? Do the same emotion-first impulses apply when our entire perception of another person's identity is based on the content of their written words?

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