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Overcoming Us vs. Them

nautil.us

101–110 of 249 posts

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#101

This is where countries with some sort of mandatory service may have us beat. And maybe it explains why American policy was so focused after the big national wars. I don't think there's a better way to force camaraderie. But then it becomes Us vs Them on the other side of the border.

I am very in favor of mandatory service as a strategy to improve nations but I do want to point out that some of the most impressive ones (South Korea and Israel come to mind) are extremely homogenous.

Devil's advocate: but what is wrong with a homogenuous country?

edited: punctuation

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#102
It's simple.

Us vs Them happens when there is competition. Competition happens when there is demand for limited valuable resources and not all that demand can be satisfied.

We bring the people of the world and the people within our nations closer together by eliminating absolute poverty.

Eliminating inequality is neither necessary nor even desirable, but the floor of our economies must be such that those sitting upon it enjoy a certain minimum acceptable level of comfort.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have never understood this idea. Why would it be beneficial to have your citizenry trained to kill?

There's several possible benefits: - Enemy nations will be somewhat less motivated to invade if they know they will be facing a population that is entirely armed and ready to resist. - Putting the population into the service of the country helps build a sense of national cohesion by giving a shared sense of mission and duty. - Training the citizens to fight could also be a tool to help prevent dictatorships where the…

A counter point:

I work with some people in Armenia (which has mandatory conscription) - and from what I've observed that military service made the Us v. Them between Armenians and Azerbaijani stronger than perhaps it would have been without said military service (a drunken encounter between one of said Armenians and an Azerbaijani person outside of Armenia literally came to blows for no real reason I could observe except Us v. Them (well, and alcohol)).

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#104
post #85
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can overcome them without removing them, by extending "us" widely enough. This is how a number of religions handled it, leading to their expansion over large swaths of diverse nations. Seeing most everyone on Earth as ingroup improves collaboration and thus propels culture / prosperity.

>Seeing most everyone on Earth as ingroup improves collaboration and thus propels culture / prosperity. Not when this isn't a shared sentiment. Whites are resented, not praised, for their anti-identity politics and inclusiveness. Now we're called racist for trying to ignore race or judging people based on the content of their character instead of the color of their skin. Also it's a pretty radical proposition to over…

[deleted]

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#106

It's simple. Us vs Them happens when there is competition. Competition happens when there is demand for limited valuable resources and not all that demand can be satisfied. We bring the people of the world and the people within our nations closer together by eliminating absolute poverty. Eliminating inequality is neither necessary nor even desirable, but the floor of our economies must be such that those sitting upon…

Just a small caveat that the amount of wealth inequality does matter as well. Less so than having a livable floor, but nonetheless. Anyone who watched outraged as Ajit Pai reverted NN yesterday should understand why implicitly.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#107
I'm just beginning my recovery from whatever makes "us vs. them" turn into "everyone vs. me" at a young age, I guess.

I'm pretty sure this way of thinking isn't being instilled systematically from the top down, but it is happening at a very large scale. What's creating this "us vs. them" which kids often interpret as "everyone vs. me," is that there are so many easy ways out of feeling pain (and thus, ways out of learning how to live as a basic human) that we're in the process of forgetting how to deal with our emotions. We opt for solitary escape early on, because that's how our parents dealt with their issues too (their parents likely believed in pulling up bootstraps, or something). And then we/they continue to opt for escape via any sensory experience available in consumer capitalist society, most recently in socially acceptable life-escape games like Facebook and Twitter. We know it's not an authentic social feed, that it's actually designed to be a game you play with yourself where your social circle makes up the characters. What happens if that real-life game turns against you though, or if your mind simply starts to think they're turning against you? Mass shootings[1], terrorism[2], and Trump[3], I think.

If the horrors of modern American childhood don't happen at home, by the hand of adults who also sought solace from their fears in similar ways, these horrors usually happen in school, where they spend the rest of their time. From fellow classmates who figure out that bullies get their way, and clever bullies get their way even more. Us vs. them happens very early on, and when kids seek out solo escape via phones, games, whatever, well that's the beginning of a neverending search via consumer society for some answer that can allow them to live with the thoughts in their head.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_shootings_in_the_United_S...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_the_United_States...

[3] https://i.imgur.com/crG3EeQ.jpg

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#108

Its too late, tech is growing more divided in hiring and its customer base. Now that google and other tech startups make blacklists of "them" that they want to block promotions and ban from working with people and groups, it seems us vs them is well embraced by the tech community. And left-leaning google/facebook/youtube/twitter using alt-right as a banner to ban conservatives, then using "Truth masters" like snopes/…

> left-leaning google/facebook/youtube/twitter using alt-right as a banner to ban conservatives What? Citation needed. I haven't heard of any conservatives getting banned from these services due to their political affiliation. > Then when programmers are on a list, or a project doesn't support the diversity license, you get banned from github, hackathons or talks. Again, what? Has this happened? I've never heard of t…

> Citation needed

James Damore was fired from Google for posting his opinion to a mailing list about the topic in question.

Brendan Eich was forced out of Mozilla for voting the “wrong” way years earlier.

Look into “opal-gate” or “dongle-gate”.

Look into Strange Loop banning speakers.

The threat of being fired or hurt professionally for not being left leaning is very real.

EDIT:

My comment providing the requested citations is now being aggressively downvoted. Just further proof that it’s most definitely not ok to question the left in this industry. I simply listed incidents that have happened.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#109

Its too late, tech is growing more divided in hiring and its customer base. Now that google and other tech startups make blacklists of "them" that they want to block promotions and ban from working with people and groups, it seems us vs them is well embraced by the tech community. And left-leaning google/facebook/youtube/twitter using alt-right as a banner to ban conservatives, then using "Truth masters" like snopes/…

> left-leaning google/facebook/youtube/twitter using alt-right as a banner to ban conservatives What? Citation needed. I haven't heard of any conservatives getting banned from these services due to their political affiliation. > Then when programmers are on a list, or a project doesn't support the diversity license, you get banned from github, hackathons or talks. Again, what? Has this happened? I've never heard of t…

Wasn't an argument, but I seem to have ruffled your feathers with my statement. I can tell you are a tad upset by your tone and inflammatory argumentive leaning questions.

Instead of countering my statement, you implied since you never heard of such things happening, it doesn't happen. This is the same argument the left uses for whites not knowing about police violence on minorities. Which is true, minorities are pulled over more by police and have a different viewpoint, just because I/we don't see/know about it, doesn't mean people need to be called out as liars.

This is exactly the "us" vs. "them" in action. Since it doesn't fit your view, its a "them" Argument.

But to answer you for some examples, not sure if you really asked in good faith, but here are some.

Check out Google engineer ousted, James Damore a liberal engineer spoke out about diversity and now is classified as alt-right hero. I would clearly say hes no alt-right or even conservative, but he is now "Them".

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2017/08...

Check out Drupal developer ousted. http://reason.com/blog/2017/04/18/drupal-developer-ousted-ov...

For Github diversity training thats slanted against whites. https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/44ttzj/racist_diversi...

Code of Conduct war that happened in Ruby. It gets worse, but here is an example. https://redmine.ruby-lang.org/issues/12004

Now I won't say google these topics, because google will return from the anti-right viewpoints. Example, If you tried to google gamergate you would think gamers hate women. Try reading /r/KotakuInAction/ over on reddit for these types of stories, they happen all the time. The sub is very middle of the road and will call both sides bullshit out. Which is refreshing.

The "US" vs. "Them" has invaded all my hobbies, news, and entertainment. And I'm sure I'm not the only tech person around who feels the same. Facebook alone has turned to shit.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#110

This is where countries with some sort of mandatory service may have us beat. And maybe it explains why American policy was so focused after the big national wars. I don't think there's a better way to force camaraderie. But then it becomes Us vs Them on the other side of the border.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15934367 and marked it off-topic.

The root comment was connected to the topic, of course, but its off topic component has a stronger magnetic pull... that's the way these things grow.

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