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English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests reveal

theguardian.com

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Re: English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests reveal

#111
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, this is why some people have fears around GMO foods. It's not that they can't appreciate the benefits, it's because they fear that we're testing systems in production that we don't fully understand.

Exactafuckingmundo. Those PR scumbags in Monsanto have been extremely effective at equating being anti-GMO with being anti-science, and it'd be real nice to see some accountability for them.

How much of this is driven by Monsanto and how much is driven by individuals with worries of a Mathusian crisis, or who have concerns about nutrition deficits among the global poor, or who see the effects of climate change on Syrian agriculture and want a tool to counteract that?

The reality is that we’ve always tested agricultural technologies in production. Sometimes with tragic results. But imagine you could control early 1800s European ag policy. Knowing both the Would you introduce the potato? Knowing the history of famine in 1780s France and the history of famine in 1840s Ireland, what policy would you set?

Re: English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests reveal

#112
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, this is why some people have fears around GMO foods. It's not that they can't appreciate the benefits, it's because they fear that we're testing systems in production that we don't fully understand.

Exactafuckingmundo. Those PR scumbags in Monsanto have been extremely effective at equating being anti-GMO with being anti-science, and it'd be real nice to see some accountability for them.

Being against the implementation of specific crop products because you believe they weren't adequately tested, or because there is evidence that they are harmful in some way - that is not anti-science.

Here's what is anti-science: being against using a range of methods available to modern biological science to engineer crops and demanding that we continue to use the less precise and inherently less safe methods that we used throughout the 20th century. This position is inherently anti-science because it is opposed to scientific understanding itself- when you realize that traditional techniques modified dozens or hundreds of genes in unpredictable ways, and now we can target specific genes that we understand the functions of, but you are opposed to doing so on some strange principle, you must realize the anti-GMO movement is anti-science itself.

It is exactly like being anti-programming because you heard about hackers stealing money from banks in the news. It's just too much of a risk, computers are complex systems that we can't always predict! It's just being safe! I hope that this analogy feels like a ridiculous stretch to you- that's how your position feels to me!

Re: English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests reveal

#113

This reminds me of trophic cascades and e.g the unintuitive link that killing wolfs affects riverbeds: https://shadowproof.com/2014/02/20/trophic-cascade-how-wolve... It like we can't understand complex systems very well. Almost everything we do seem to have to have major unintended consequences. We see this over and over again, we have to abandon the "as cheap and fast as possible" thinking !

FWIW, this is why some people have fears around GMO foods. It's not that they can't appreciate the benefits, it's because they fear that we're testing systems in production that we don't fully understand.

Yes, it is so. Consider that corn was modified to be more resilient but its pollen may be compatible with nearby plants. Hybridization of transgenics with local flora may have unintended and far-reaching consequences. That's why the "Terminator" traits are typically outlawed. No one (eh...citation needed) desires a world where growing the food requires a proprietary compound. I doubt a civilization with a food supply like that could remain stable.

However! I read an interesting study that claimed Bt transgenics are better for food production & the environment because they kill crop pests but the carnivorous field fauna (spiders, horseflies, etc.) flourish with humankind's helping hand.

Whereas I typically purchase non-GMO foods, this revelation caused me to question, and to become ambivalent. No doubt pests would tolerate Bt with time, but in humans Bt is a non-toxic pesticide, and the germlines of the crop pests would probably never recover from the trait's proliferation. At the same time, the carnivorous "worker arthropods" which eat the crop pests would also experience a huge acceleration in their development.

Directed breeding in animals is an issue which has a tighter grip on my heart--some of the stuff that's been done to dogs and cats to "get them to look a certain way" is really messed up. Maybe some look at the fields the same way.

I do not know. It is not my choice. I am glad for that.

Re: English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests reveal

#114
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactafuckingmundo. Those PR scumbags in Monsanto have been extremely effective at equating being anti-GMO with being anti-science, and it'd be real nice to see some accountability for them.

How much of this is driven by Monsanto and how much is driven by individuals with worries of a Mathusian crisis, or who have concerns about nutrition deficits among the global poor, or who see the effects of climate change on Syrian agriculture and want a tool to counteract that? The reality is that we’ve always tested agricultural technologies in production. Sometimes with tragic results. But imagine you could contr…

Imho what makes people summon Monsanto isn't just the possible dangers to the biological ecosphere, it's also the fact that Monsanto has a history of suing farmers for patent infringements, due to the cross-pollination of the Monsanto plants.

This sets a horrible precedent, I don't want to live in a world where corporate engineered, and patented, "super plants" contaminate the whole planet and people will end up being sued over patent infringement for trying to grow their own food.

Re: English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests reveal

#115

This reminds me of trophic cascades and e.g the unintuitive link that killing wolfs affects riverbeds: https://shadowproof.com/2014/02/20/trophic-cascade-how-wolve... It like we can't understand complex systems very well. Almost everything we do seem to have to have major unintended consequences. We see this over and over again, we have to abandon the "as cheap and fast as possible" thinking !

FWIW, this is why some people have fears around GMO foods. It's not that they can't appreciate the benefits, it's because they fear that we're testing systems in production that we don't fully understand.

I think about this a lot with respect to society as a whole. Specifically, legalizing drugs, effects of social media, and universal basic income will affect the most complex system of all, 'society', in ways we can't possibly predict. Anyone who says these giant changes are definitely safe is naive.

Still, we need to try and make progress.

Re: English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests reveal

#116
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactafuckingmundo. Those PR scumbags in Monsanto have been extremely effective at equating being anti-GMO with being anti-science, and it'd be real nice to see some accountability for them.

How much of this is driven by Monsanto and how much is driven by individuals with worries of a Mathusian crisis, or who have concerns about nutrition deficits among the global poor, or who see the effects of climate change on Syrian agriculture and want a tool to counteract that? The reality is that we’ve always tested agricultural technologies in production. Sometimes with tragic results. But imagine you could contr…

Too many variables. I would say, grow the most-energy dense, least land & water intensive crops possible. For the US my understanding is that that would probably entail GM corn, tepiary beans, and squash, on rotation or with companion planting, no till, dryland farming as much as possible.

But then there are economies of luxury and scale, people like fruit, and meat, and spices, and stuff which can't be grown nearby. People cultivate the jackfruit instead of maize, Brazil's trying to extirpate a "jackfruit infestation," and olive trees are sometimes considered "weeds" in Australia.

The Neolithic Revolution is bonkers, basically.

I'm not an experienced farmer, everyone's land is different, and just today I learned that there are parts of the world where bushland edibles are so plentiful that the locals see no reason to farm at all. So perhaps I should shut up now :)

Re: English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests reveal

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK is still in the EU and yet the river is still polluted.

Did you even read the article? > EU vote to extend the ban to all outdoor uses is expected soon.

From the HN guidelines:

Please don't insinuate that someone hasn't read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that."

Re: English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests reveal

#118
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very rational analysis, but I think a factor that is more relevant to politics is people's strong gut reaction to issues. Some people reflexively oppose all efforts to protect the environment. I'm very liberal, so I have a lot of friends who reflexively support all government regulation of business, without bothering to know the specifics. I would call them anti-business. Or if you tell someone there was a p…

I think the real issue is that people think they are pro-environment, and so think that people they disagree with on related issues must surely then be the opposite - anti-environment. I think it’s a sad indication of how polarised people think things are and how little they try to understand and be reasonable.

[deleted]

Re: English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests reveal

#119
The primary concern of industrial food is moving large quantities of food efficiently, the same as gasoline or, well, insecticides; safety and nutrition only have to be barely high enough to support that. It's why we're absorbing insecticides and high fructose corn syrup, for example, in our bodies.

Re: English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests reveal

#120
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keyword here: "acute". Nothing about chronic exposure, which is what is relevant here. Even if they did have a long-term study of low-dose exposure, it would be an extremely limited one (rats, mice, controlled conditions) missing the mix of much more stuff we are exposed to all the time. Having suffered from (finally clinically diagnosed and clinically treated with chelators DMPS and DMSA - with great results) low-do…

> Having suffered from (finally clinically diagnosed and clinically treated with chelators DMPS and DMSA - with great results) low-dose long-term heavy metal poisoning I had to find out, both myself (studying as much as I could) and from the doctors Wow. I'm extremely curious about how you found out, what your symptoms were, and what resources you used to educate yourself. Do you think that people with your condition…

> I'm extremely curious about how you found out

Exclusion and desperation. I got nothing from various doctors despite problems that I thought should be treatable. It had very, very slowly gotten worse over two to three decades. It is very, very subtle, and until a threshold was reached I described myself as "100% healthy" - completely ignoring a myriad of increasing little problems. Because each and every one of them has alternative explanations, usually: aging, office/computer work, stress, wrong food, "everybody has problems", etc. Soooo much went away under chelation treatment that I didn't even have on the radar, things that I had attributed to the mentioned untreatable problems, mostly aging or stress or food. But it wasn't!

I thought that my problems seemed very treatable/diagnosable, but nobody even tried. "You take Nexium (a PPI) for the rest of your life" said a professor of gastroenterology, which to me was pure torture, I never felt as bad in my life as when I used that stuff. Then I found that I had a massive Candida problem, which had started when I took the PPI. A doctor confirmed it (the professor had ignored everything I had told him and thought it's all in my head), I was even given systemic anti-fungals (fluconazole), with huge positive effect, but then my hands where yellow... I then learned that Candida never is a root cause, always a symptom. Apparently I didn't have any of the usual medical textbook problems that lead to such a problem. The only thing left was something I found in the forums of the "crazy people": They claimed Candida often is a problem of people with a heavy metal problem. With nothing left to try and to lose I went down that route: Take measurements, find a specialist (I had to go very far), start chelation and see if it helps. Well, the measurements should middlish amounts of mercury, "You are in a gray zone but I can justify chelation therapy" said the doctor. The real proof came with the unexpectedly large success over the years.

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If I was a doctor I would not treat this condition. It is next to impossible to detect - basically, there is no known method to conclusively test if heavy metals are a problem or not. You can get indications, but only acute poisonings with large doses can be shown through a simple test. So how did we know in my case? I was "lucky" enough to have had a few special conditions that lead to an acute surge, so I actually had significant levels (of mercury) in blood, hair and urine. Most people with chronic poisoning won't have that though. The rest of the proof that that indeed was the problem was all the things that started to improve after starting chelation - many of them completely unexpectedly. For example, during chelation, after each round, the tissue around my right-side thyroid was "working" (very active, some pain). The result, shown a year afterwards: A 5 mm nodule in the twice-normal-size thyroid had completely(!) disappeared, and the thyroid was almost normal size. I had had endocrinologists show that nodule and the double-sized right thyroid unchanged over almost three decades. The endocrinologist examined me with ultrasound TWICE because he did not believe his results. There is a lot more, that was just one of the highlights because people like undeniable biomedical imaging proofs, so much better than me saying "I can sleep much better".

So anyway, as I was saying, if I was a doctor I would not treat this condition. The problem is that you need crazy people like me. This requires a long-term commitment for an uncertain outcome. You also need resources - money, TIME (you cannot go on living a regular employee life, the chelators only help get things started, your body has to do most of it, and it requires lots of time and you need to rest or it (the body) won't do anything). Most people would never have that patience, as a doctor you will make your life much harder if you offer those treatments. Not to mention that there is the potential to be right - and make things a lot worse: If somebody indeed has a heavy metal problem chelation may make it worse (it mobilizes more than it can bind, since no chemical bond is eternal and perfect), and if their body already is on edge...

Also, the whole subject is itself poisoned. On the one hand you have few options to show anything conclusively, no good tests, on the other hand the whole topic of heavy metal poisoning, or just poisoning, is extremely popular in "alternative health" circles. So even if you are a doctor, you really, really don't want to be seen working in this area by your colleagues. It's much more acceptable (by both your medical colleagues as well as insurers!) to offer homeopathy, as an MD, than offering chelation. At least that's my observation.

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> Do you think that people with your condition are misdiagnosed on a large scale?

I have no opinion about other people. A lot of things are very special in my own case. I certainly think the problem could be much larger than people think. On the NIH website I found a document that stated that mercury is far more toxic than lead. I took a course from Tufts University [0] about water treatment. Of the four weeks they spent one entire week, 25% of the whole course, only talking about lead. There were two professors, one for the engineering side, one for the medical side, and the medical professor cited study after study and showed graphs that the state of medical science is that the only safe level is zero (technically not feasible - thus not possible to have as an official limit). So there is a lot of attention on lead, has been for decades. I don't see nearly as much on mercury, supposedly much worse, despite there being quite a bit of mercury around us. For example, are you sure eating all that tuna and other sea fish, especially the predatory ones, is such a good idea? In my experience, the one I gained the last few years, involuntarily, the signs are extremely(!) subtle. You don't get "sick" or a fever. You may have a little bit of trouble with your eyes. Or you get problems with your carpal tunnel (RSI). The easy explanation will be, in both cases, that you spend too much time in front of computers. Or you have a bit more trouble finding good sleep. Your digestion acts up - but just a bit, if you went to a gastroenterologist they'd send you home "we found nothing wrong". The list goes on and on.

Are people misdiagnosed?

Maybe, I'd say probably - but there is no proven alternative. None. We just don't know.

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There is a general mismatch problem with medical knowledge based on observation and statistics: It is one thing to know that x percent of a certain population have a problem. It is a completely different problem going the other way: If you have an individual, in front of you, does (s)he have the problem or not? The probability you have is of no use to you, you have to make a decision, yea/nay?

A prudent doctor, knowing that the odds are low, will always say "no" in such a case, and statistically speaking that's the winning strategy from a public health point of view. You know you lose a few, but that's the minimum, if you tried finding out who actually has the problem (that you cannot reliably diagnose on an individual level) your overall statistics would get worse. That means knowledge of a problem on the scale of the population is almost useless when it comes to making individual treatment decisions. You need something on that (individual) level. In the case of long-term exposure (or any exposure) to low-dose poisons we don't have much that we can use, not on the individual level.

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[0] https://www.edx.org/course/biology-water-health-fundamentals...

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