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German military kicks off heavy lift helicopter competition

reuters.com

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Re: German military kicks off heavy lift helicopter competition

#31

Post by AcerbicZero »

imglorp wrote: post #22
dingaling wrote: post #9

Same two contenders as the original competition in 1965! Significantly updated but still disappointing in showing how little aerodynamics has progressed in five decades.

Also curious: why no other contenders, especially the Russians? Procurement politics is heavy stuff.

Well besides the political aspect of Germany sourcing key military hardware from what is arguably their largest regional threat, there would also be possible logistical and maintenance issues.

Also switching to Russian Helicopters (The company) and trying to integrate those into the NATO force structure would likely require a great number of changes to be made to the aircraft, which might make them non-competitive on price alone.

Re: German military kicks off heavy lift helicopter competition

#32

Post by thesumofall »

leroy_masochist wrote: post #27
imglorp wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also curious: why no other contenders, especially the Russians? Procurement politics is heavy stuff.

Not sure it makes sense to buy military aircraft from any given country if being able to stop them from invading you is your military's primary mission.

It is absolutely not the primary mission of the German army to stop a Russian invasion. I guess it’s not even on their top 10 list

Re: German military kicks off heavy lift helicopter competition

#33

Post by vpribish »

AcerbicZero wrote: post #31
imglorp wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also curious: why no other contenders, especially the Russians? Procurement politics is heavy stuff.

Well besides the political aspect of Germany sourcing key military hardware from what is arguably their largest regional threat, there would also be possible logistical and maintenance issues. Also switching to Russian Helicopters (The company) and trying to integrate those into the NATO force structure would likely require a great number of changes to be made to the aircraft, which might make them non-competitive on…

not to detract in any way, but Germany was operating Soviet Mig-29s alongside NATO kit for years (maybe still?) after reunification. So if anyone could do it...

Re: German military kicks off heavy lift helicopter competition

#34

Post by distances »

leroy_masochist wrote: post #27
imglorp wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also curious: why no other contenders, especially the Russians? Procurement politics is heavy stuff.

Not sure it makes sense to buy military aircraft from any given country if being able to stop them from invading you is your military's primary mission.

It depends a bit. For example Finland used to use a lot of Soviet weaponry while (practically if not officially) preparing to deter Soviet attack. Some upsides:

- Results in trade deals with a neighboring superpower

- In case of war, looted enemy armament is familiar and compatible

- Cheaper due to Soviet attempts to keep sphere of influence (e.g. no direct NATO compatibility)

Re: German military kicks off heavy lift helicopter competition

#35

Post by leroy_masochist »

thesumofall wrote: post #32
leroy_masochist wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure it makes sense to buy military aircraft from any given country if being able to stop them from invading you is your military's primary mission.

It is absolutely not the primary mission of the German army to stop a Russian invasion. I guess it’s not even on their top 10 list

Stopping a major combined arms invasion from an easterly neighbor is the focus of all of Germany's big training exercises to this day. Instead of whatever the Heer says through its public affairs officers, look at what is actually being practiced and paid for with the Euros in the defense budget. It's not counterinsurgency, it's not disaster relief, it's training out of Wildflecken focused on stopping a theoretical invader from penetrating the Fulda Gap with tanks.

Re: German military kicks off heavy lift helicopter competition

#36

Post by geezerjay »

rbanffy wrote: post #6
le-mark wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A worn-out fuel line had been rubbing silently against a bundle of old electrical wires near the front of the cabin – a problem that had gone undetected for years. The same mechanical defect existed inside every Sea Dragon in the fleet, though nobody knew it. Over nearly three decades, the Navy had never required anyone to regularly inspect Sea Dragon wires or fuel lines for damage. Calling this particular problem ma…

We shouldn't underestimate what we don't know about building machines. Maintenance should accommodate time to check for wear on parts we don't expect to, to check things that are different from what we expect them to be. The problem was there for decades and one inspection in one unit over that period would probably have evidenced the issue and added one more item for the maintenance checklists. It's not like the man…

> Maintenance should accommodate time to check for wear on parts we don't expect to

How much time do you spend performing exhaustive checks for problems that don't exist?

Re: German military kicks off heavy lift helicopter competition

#37

Post by mschuster91 »

vpribish wrote: post #33
AcerbicZero wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well besides the political aspect of Germany sourcing key military hardware from what is arguably their largest regional threat, there would also be possible logistical and maintenance issues. Also switching to Russian Helicopters (The company) and trying to integrate those into the NATO force structure would likely require a great number of changes to be made to the aircraft, which might make them non-competitive on…

not to detract in any way, but Germany was operating Soviet Mig-29s alongside NATO kit for years (maybe still?) after reunification. So if anyone could do it...

With the MiG-29s you had the entire former NVA personnel, hardware and experience.

Introducing Russian (or other non-NATO stuff) would require extensive trainings, quite possible new sets of tools, and who knows if any Russian stuff could be made to interoperate with NATO technology.

Re: German military kicks off heavy lift helicopter competition

#38

Post by geezerjay »

vpribish wrote: post #33
AcerbicZero wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well besides the political aspect of Germany sourcing key military hardware from what is arguably their largest regional threat, there would also be possible logistical and maintenance issues. Also switching to Russian Helicopters (The company) and trying to integrate those into the NATO force structure would likely require a great number of changes to be made to the aircraft, which might make them non-competitive on…

not to detract in any way, but Germany was operating Soviet Mig-29s alongside NATO kit for years (maybe still?) after reunification. So if anyone could do it...

Inheriting old Soviet equipment from East Germany is not remotely comparable to purchasing new non-NATO equipment to meet current requirements.

Re: German military kicks off heavy lift helicopter competition

#39

Post by trhway »

dingaling wrote: post #9

Same two contenders as the original competition in 1965! Significantly updated but still disappointing in showing how little aerodynamics has progressed in five decades.

>Same two contenders as the original competition in 1965!

It is great to be the King! ... err ... military contractor!

Re: German military kicks off heavy lift helicopter competition

#40

Post by microcolonel »

ethagknight wrote: post #20
ju-st wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

H225M MTOW: 11t CH-53K MTOW: 38t

The CH-53 is a massive helicopter. CH-53K has 2x the rotor area as the H225M, and its over 50% taller, longer.

    H225M: (Empty Weight - MTOW) ≅  5650kg
    CH-47: (Empty Weight - MTOW) ≅ 11500kg
    CH-53: (Empty Weight - MTOW) ≅ 23300kg
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