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English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests reveal

theguardian.com

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Re: English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests reveal

#71

Post by pmyteh »

wav-part wrote: post #50
lucozade wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It applies to both. It's just the mechanisms for regulation and feedback are different. When you don't have a mechanism for regulation in government, such as democracy, you tend to get very bad government. That's not to suggest that fines or elections are particularly effective but they serve similar purposes.

What about voters ? They are money-seeking. Who would save them from themselves ?

No single voter has control, so they check each other.

In principle, anyway. Democracy obviously isn't a perfect system.

Re: English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests reveal

#72

Post by spodek »

userbinator wrote: post #69
amelius wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they weren't used, the planet would be less polluted but we might have nowhere near the same quality of life as we do today Those "organic/biological" products in the supermarket look fine to me.

Those "organic/biological" products in the supermarket look fine to me. ...but can the whole population survive on those exclusively, or even afford them?

Hundreds of thousands of years of human existence, in which our ancestors colonized the planet, suggests so.

Do we want to temporarily overshoot the carrying capacity by poisoning our environment at the risk of collapse if we lower that capacity in the process?

Re: English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests reveal

#73

Post by auxym »

chrisseaton wrote: post #66
toyg wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure you’re familiar with the UK situation. The country has no green tradition, it was dragged into modern practices kicking and screaming by German and Scandinavian-inspired EU regulations. Their rivers and beaches only started looking clean in the early ‘00s. The Cameron government promised to be “the greenest ever” and failed to deliver on all accounts, dropping the whole issue after less than a year in po…

> a Tory government that is naturally pro-business and anti-environment Almost nobody in the world is 'anti-environment'. That's a ludicrous claim. Many people think other things matter more than the environment, or don't care about the environment at all, sure, but if you think any people, let alone major political parties, are working against the environment deliberately for its own sake I think you're barmy.

Americans who enjoy "rolling coal" come to mind.

Re: English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests reveal

#74

Post by kbart »

amelius wrote: post #65

There exists an automatic bird-repellent system: [1]. Can't we use the same idea for insects? [1] https://birdcontrolgroup.com/agrilaser-autonomic/

There might be literally millions of insects in a field, how many lasers would you need for that? Also, you would need much more precise sensors as detecting an insect is way harder than a bird. Such system would be way too expensive, unless you'd like to pay 100 euros for a loaf of bread.

Re: English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests reveal

#75

Post by ccozan »

titzer wrote: post #29
goatlover wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, It does help keep our windshields clean from all that bug splatter.

Indeed. [ http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/05/where-have-all-insect... ]

Start travelling from West Europe towards East Europe. Until you reach Romania/Slovakia/Serbia/Ukraine, your car is clean.

Over these borders, after 10km of night ( or even day) drive your car will be splatted with insects. No idea why, but the vegetation is incredibly varied/wild compared with West Europe.

Re: English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests reveal

#76

Post by posterboy »

akhatri_aus wrote: post #58
Hendrikto wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you even read the article? > EU vote to extend the ban to all outdoor uses is expected soon.

Did you? The runoff still comes out of greenhouses where the insecticide will be allowed to be used after the ban. What the article implies is the ban will have little effect & advocates a total ban. Commercial interests won. > The proposed EU ban would still allow neonicotinoids to be used in greenhouses and as a flea treatment for pets. A new Greenpeace study suggests neonicotinoids are frequently found in waterway…

How's that supposed to happen? I'd suspect drainage would flow vertically into the ground water. Is the water table as high as to level with the river so the pesticide can move sideways?

Re: English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests reveal

#78

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

posterboy wrote: post #76
akhatri_aus wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you? The runoff still comes out of greenhouses where the insecticide will be allowed to be used after the ban. What the article implies is the ban will have little effect & advocates a total ban. Commercial interests won. > The proposed EU ban would still allow neonicotinoids to be used in greenhouses and as a flea treatment for pets. A new Greenpeace study suggests neonicotinoids are frequently found in waterway…

How's that supposed to happen? I'd suspect drainage would flow vertically into the ground water. Is the water table as high as to level with the river so the pesticide can move sideways?

Yep!

A drainage basin or 'catchment area' is any area of land where precipitation collects and drains off into a common outlet, such as into a river, bay, or other body of water. The drainage basin includes all the surface water from rain runoff, snowmelt, and nearby streams that run downslope towards the shared outlet, as well as the groundwater underneath the earth's surface.[1] Drainage basins connect into other drainage basins at lower elevations in a hierarchical pattern, with smaller sub-drainage basins, which in turn drain into another common outlet.[1]

1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drainage_basin

Re: English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests reveal

#79

Post by amelius »

hycaria wrote: post #77
amelius wrote: post #65

There exists an automatic bird-repellent system: [1]. Can't we use the same idea for insects? [1] https://birdcontrolgroup.com/agrilaser-autonomic/

But some are good to have around, that's the whole problem...

We can use deep learning for that :)

Re: English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests reveal

#80

Post by 7952 »

chrisseaton wrote: post #66
toyg wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure you’re familiar with the UK situation. The country has no green tradition, it was dragged into modern practices kicking and screaming by German and Scandinavian-inspired EU regulations. Their rivers and beaches only started looking clean in the early ‘00s. The Cameron government promised to be “the greenest ever” and failed to deliver on all accounts, dropping the whole issue after less than a year in po…

> a Tory government that is naturally pro-business and anti-environment Almost nobody in the world is 'anti-environment'. That's a ludicrous claim. Many people think other things matter more than the environment, or don't care about the environment at all, sure, but if you think any people, let alone major political parties, are working against the environment deliberately for its own sake I think you're barmy.

The word "environment" has become ridiculously overused and can seemingly refer to a whole grab bag of different issues. And sometimes it is accompanied by an effort to depoliticise contraversial issues. So that we don't talk about them and conform to the "correct" line. This just alienates people who could have been supportive on particular single issues. As people learn more about these issues they will hopefully have a more nuanced understanding and opinions.
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