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English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests reveal

theguardian.com

41–50 of 134 posts

Re: English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests reveal

#41
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Do we really need regulations?" Yes. You need to read on industrial history if this is not obvious to you. The nature of business and industry is such that they prefer local short term optimizations. In this context an environmental hazard is not considered a concern for various reasons, including, it incurs no immediate negative impact on the factory, the impact of one factory would be insignificant because everyon…

> You need to read on industrial history if this is not obvious to you. I'm asking questions to learn something from the discussion. Currently, my opinion is that regulations are necessary, but perhaps they aren't, and I would like to hear why. > Think of it as an algorithmic problem - local optimization seldom leads to a global optimum. Hence, sometimes global tweaks can benefit an entire system. To me, this sounds…

> I'm asking questions to learn something from the discussion. Currently, my opinion is that regulations are necessary, but perhaps they aren't, and I would like to hear why.

Trying to recall what they taught us in business school. Regulations of the kind I think you mean (i.e. ban pollution) are one way to combat externalities, but there are others, in theory.

Econ. researchers stipulate property rights as one way:

If I own the river, and the right to fish in the future, my incentives will shift toward not polluting today. If the river is public and I have no guarantee of future yields, then the game theoretically smart thing to do is pollute as much as I can get away with.

As always, the devil is in the implementation details.

Pre-emtping useless word thinking: I am aware that "property rights" can fall under regulation, depending on definitions. If that bothers you, feel free to s/regulation/bans in the paragraphs preceding this.

Re: English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests reveal

#42
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does this apply to one group of people (private industry) but not the other (govt) ? Both are money-seeking.

Government doesn't exactly have shareholders. Although campaign funding is tending that way.

Citizens may be thought as the shareholders. Anycase what does it prove ?

Re: English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests reveal

#43
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Do we really need regulations?" Yes. You need to read on industrial history if this is not obvious to you. The nature of business and industry is such that they prefer local short term optimizations. In this context an environmental hazard is not considered a concern for various reasons, including, it incurs no immediate negative impact on the factory, the impact of one factory would be insignificant because everyon…

Why does this apply to one group of people (private industry) but not the other (govt) ? Both are money-seeking.

It applies to both. It's just the mechanisms for regulation and feedback are different.

When you don't have a mechanism for regulation in government, such as democracy, you tend to get very bad government.

That's not to suggest that fines or elections are particularly effective but they serve similar purposes.

Re: English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests reveal

#44
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not sure what a capitalist incentive is, but we have plenty of ways to potentially regulate this. Are you asking about technical feasibility of finding the actors responsible for it? I was thinking, in the framework of capitalism, what would the incentive be, other than regulation, to not pollute? Why does it not work, is the incentive missing? For example, there are companies like Clean Harbors that earn billions…

> Are they earning money because regulations need to be met? Yes? If there aren't regulations, then waste will be disposed of by the cheapest method, which usually involves dumping it into the atmosphere and/or water. This is how it used to be until environmental campaigning in the 70s and 80s got the regulations introduced in the West, and far more recently in China.

Whey is waste in the dairy industry, yet it's sold profitably as a dietary supplement and used all over the processed food market.

Unfit oranges, apples etc. are waste to the fruit producers, but juices love it.

Cow shit is a complete waste but is used as a fertilizer. Although, a bunch of cow shit is also thrown into rivers.

Wasted food is ground into powder and given to animals.

I guess food might be an exception. I don't know if there exists something similar for oil, chemicals etc.

Re: English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests reveal

#45
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strawman. Anti-BigGovernment != Anti-Environment.

Sure, but in reality those go hand in hand.

Lets say I disagree with EU-enfoced regulation ? Do you count it as anti-environement ? What if agree to same regulation if enfoced by UK ?

Point is, its about who enforcing it not what. If even that does not fix your observations, I would like to request some proof/citations.

Re: English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests reveal

#46
post #18
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Different countries have different priorities. That's the good thing about sovereignty. Don't like your current government's ideas? Replace them at the next election. On the other hand, you don't like the EU's ideas? Um... good luck with that. Just be glad that the EU's been relatively benign so far.

> Just be glad that the EU's been relatively benign so far. The creation of free movement of people, goods, services and capital across 28 States and creating a common currency used by many of them is arguably not “benign”. For avoidance of doubt I’m in no way expressing an opinion on the merits of these - simply that it is not benign in the sense of having done nothing.

> that it is not benign in the sense of having done nothing.

I think that you're using the word in a pretty unusual way there, perhaps inspired by medical usage. 'benign' comes from the latin meaning 'good', and has the same root as 'benefactor', 'beneficial', 'benefit' or 'bonus'. In its nonmedical sense it almost always refers to something being good, not having negligible effect.

Re: English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests reveal

#47

After years of rubbish in the UK press about the impact of regulations from the EU, they can add protecting fish, bird and most likely human health to the list of 'harm' done. I'm glad the EU still cares about the environment.

The UK is still in the EU and yet the river is still polluted.

Re: English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests reveal

#48
post #2

I wonder what the effect of neonicotinoids on humans is... it can’t be good

The NIH has a metastudy here: https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/ehp515/ >As reviewed here, four studies reported low rates of adverse health effects from acute neonic exposure. Even the most severe outcomes, including two fatalities, may have been mediated by other factors (age, underlying health conditions, undetected coexposures). The acute poisoning studies did, however, elucidate clinical findings important for the diagn…

Keyword here: "acute". Nothing about chronic exposure, which is what is relevant here. Even if they did have a long-term study of low-dose exposure, it would be an extremely limited one (rats, mice, controlled conditions) missing the mix of much more stuff we are exposed to all the time.

Having suffered from (finally clinically diagnosed and clinically treated with chelators DMPS and DMSA - with great results) low-dose long-term heavy metal poisoning I had to find out, both myself (studying as much as I could) and from the doctors, that there basically exists next to zero clinically relevant research for a) low-dose exposure, b) long-term, c) (and this one is by far the worst) a mix of chemicals rather than examining just one or two at a time in isolation. The last one is very relevant - mixing stuff often dramatically changes the effect. I once found an LD (lethal dose) heavy metal poisoning study on rats where mixing lead and mercury was about a thousand times more lethal (i.e. 1/1000th the dose of both) compared to poisoning the rats with only one of them.

The reason isn't a conspiracy of course, it's just impractical to impossible to study anything but acute poisonings and only of one or very few chemicals at a time.

Also, each time somebody recites officially allowed values I cringe - for example, the medical science opinion about the desirable lead exposure is zero. However, of course this isn't practical - and this is what all those official limits are: Administrative practical values, considering what can be done, where the research stands (always erring on the opposite side of caution - you have to prove the bad effect before the limits are lowered) and at what cost.

So no, science does not have the answer about any of this. The internal medicine + environmental medicine research doctor that was my main doc is pretty pessimistic about the stuff we (humans) do, and this guy lives with the research, always citing this or that new study when we meet.

Maybe I should add that there indeed are lots and lots of studies. However, they are incredibly specific, they won't be the basis for tougher legislation/lower official limits, because even if you take a hundred (good) studies of that kind you did not prove that the specific effect observed in the lab is relevant "in the world setting", and/or on humans, and/or what the combined net effect of "everything" might be. Which is, at least today, pretty much impossible.

Re: English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests reveal

#49
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but in reality those go hand in hand.

Lets say I disagree with EU-enfoced regulation ? Do you count it as anti-environement ? What if agree to same regulation if enfoced by UK ? Point is, its about who enforcing it not what. If even that does not fix your observations, I would like to request some proof/citations.

The EU doesn’t enforce the regulations anyway, member states do through their respective agencies. In this case, the Environment Agency and/or Scottish EPA will have responsibility.

Re: English rivers polluted by neonicotinoids, first tests reveal

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does this apply to one group of people (private industry) but not the other (govt) ? Both are money-seeking.

It applies to both. It's just the mechanisms for regulation and feedback are different. When you don't have a mechanism for regulation in government, such as democracy, you tend to get very bad government. That's not to suggest that fines or elections are particularly effective but they serve similar purposes.

What about voters ? They are money-seeking. Who would save them from themselves ?
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