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E Pur Si Muove

blog.samaltman.com

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Re: E Pur Si Muove

#491

Post by rhapsodic »

cortesoft wrote: post #475
Houshalter wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's how they justify it, but empirically it doesn't seem to be the case. E.g. liberals are pretty tolerant of minority groups with more extreme opinions than average conservatives. E.g. muslims are pretty strongly against homosexuals among other things. But they don't receive anywhere near the same level of hate and vitriol even moderate conservatives will get. I think it's just based on how much of a threat a gro…

> E.g. liberals are pretty tolerant of minority groups with more extreme opinions than average conservatives. E.g. muslims are pretty strongly against homosexuals among other things. But they don't receive anywhere near the same level of hate and vitriol even moderate conservatives will get. I think this is a common misunderstanding among conservatives of a certain type. The pattern seems to be: A right-wing person m…

>A right-wing person makes a statement saying, "We need to stop allowing Muslims into this country to protect ourselves against terrorism"

>A liberal response is to say, "That is intolerant. You can't group all Muslims as terrorists. We need to be tolerant of people with different faiths"

That's a very good characterization of most liberal responses on this particular issue. It's a complete non-sequitur. The RW statement does not in any way imply that all Muslims are terrorists. The liberal response doesn't address the crux of the statement at all, it just impugns the character of the person who made it.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#492

Post by empath75 »

hellcow wrote: post #87
ealexhudson wrote: post #6

I think this is a radical simplification of what is a complex problem. Genetic engineering as a whole is known to be an area strewn with moral hazards, and not least harks back to some of the darkest days of 20th century science. Having an ethical outlook isn't a form of heresy, it's a form of societal safety. We need to accept that some of these ideas (probably not all - it's always difficult to get on the right sid…

> We need to accept that some of these ideas ... are inherently dangerous. This line of reasoning leads to censorship. It's the same line of reasoning used by every dictator and demagogue as well as China today. Why? The idea of democracy seems dangerous to a king. Ideas are not dangerous. Ideas are never dangerous. Ideas acted upon might cause danger or harm, but an idea itself never does, never has, and never will…

Ideas being dangerous is one of the reasons that free speech is important. If they weren’t dangerous to someone nobody would bother opposing them.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#493

Post by edmccard »

Houshalter wrote: post #476
GuiA wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These are by far the most important technologies of our time. The consequences of them being set back even a little is utterly enormous, and we should be very concerned about this. That's just like, your opinion man. If genetic engineering and life extension become common place, especially if controlled by private companies which naturally seek profit above all else, who will benefit from them most? (hint: probably…

>If genetic engineering and life extension become common place, especially if controlled by private companies which naturally seek profit above all else, who will benefit from them most? (hint: probably not people living on welfare) Why not? People on welfare have access to better healthcare than the richest person on Earth did 50 years ago. They have access to pocket computers and communication systems far more powe…

>People on welfare have access to better healthcare than the richest person on Earth did 50 years ago. They have access to pocket computers and communication systems far more powerful than the military could have afforded 50 years ago.

Which doesn't really matter unless you have a time machine that can send them back 50 years. At least, none of the poor people I've known (including myself) have ever said "I can't afford to give my children better opportunities, let alone leave them something in my will, but hey! at least they'll have nifty pocket computers!"

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#494

Post by curun1r »

kfcm wrote: post #67

This isn't happening in only SF, or only in tech. It's happening all over, and across the spectrum of ideas. Is the argument that social media is tearing apart our society correct? I think it goes deeper than that, and that it's tech in general. We've grown impatient with right-swipe, immediate communication (whether through texting or calling on a cell phone; remember when you had to find a phone, or wait until you…

The lack of patience seems right on to me. I get the feeling that a lot of these discussions where people feel afraid to speak their mind are issues where the orthodoxy feels it has resolved the issue and moved on to talking about something new. They're tired of having conversations they see as repetitive. And when someone questions some part of that perceived-resolved issue, there's a lack of patience to, as they see it, go back and discuss it in a rational and level-headed manner and, instead, a it's easier to apply a stigmatized label that connotes that the person is somehow behind the times and move on to talking about the subjects that interest them.

With more patience could come calm and reasoned responses that could help move other people towards a more progressive outlook. But I agree that our society and the somewhat-recent trend towards immediacy of everything in our lives has led to a desire to have the same immediacy in conflict resolution. We don't tolerate as many diverging opinions because they'd take too long to integrate.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#495

Post by chasing »

'More recently, I’ve seen credible people working on ideas like pharmaceuticals for intelligence augmentation, genetic engineering, and radical life extension leave San Francisco because they found the reaction to their work to be so toxic. “If people live a lot longer it will be disastrous for the environment, so people working on this must be really unethical” was a memorable quote I heard this year.'

That's toxic? First, sounds very straw-man. Second, okay, someone said they think something's unethical. Maybe it is? Maybe they have a point they didn't articulate well? Maybe they're straight-up wrong! If you're arguing for free speech, then you're arguing in favor of people being vocally critical of ideas you hold dear. Hiding under the pillow fort of "California is so intolerant" makes it seem like what you're actually complaining about is people disagreeing with you.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#496

Post by dang »

orthoganol wrote: post #133

You know Sam, if you stopped censoring controversial positions or posts from hacker news I might take you seriously. Coming from someone who is now almost automatically moved to the bottom of threads or the ridiculous "See More" section you all implemented, who as a result just doesn't post much anymore.

Sam doesn't do any of that. I do, so you should take it up with me.

"Censorship" and "moderation" sometimes refer to the same thing from different points of view. The basis of HN moderation is not ideological agreement or disagreement, but the site rules at https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. Most of the time when people complain that they've been censored/moderated because of their "controversial positions", they're unaware or don't want to admit that they broke the site guidelines. Of course we also make mistakes.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#497

Post by chickenfries »

clairity wrote: post #237
throwaway34689 wrote: post #148

Of the places I've lived (not necessarily in order): - Deep South (18 years - born + raised) - Boston MA (5 years @ college then job) - NYC (6+ years) - Los Angeles (1yr @ startup) - San Diego (1yr @ startup) - Bay Area (6 years, including 4+ at household name tech company) I found the Bay Area (and SF in particular) to be the most intolerant, rigid and inflexible culture I've ever lived and worked in. I've never enc…

as a counterpoint, i have a similar geographical history and felt and saw more raciscm in the south than elsewhere (although to be fair, it wasn't vastly more so). what you're feeling in that smugness is an exercise of social power on you. my guess is that you're white, which is why you didn't feel racism in the south but did feel the smugness of the "coastal elite" (and why you tie those two things together in your…

Yeah, I also want to bet that they're straight.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#498

Post by dang »

Gargoyle wrote: post #151
orthoganol wrote: post #133

You know Sam, if you stopped censoring controversial positions or posts from hacker news I might take you seriously. Coming from someone who is now almost automatically moved to the bottom of threads or the ridiculous "See More" section you all implemented, who as a result just doesn't post much anymore.

I do think this is one place he could put his money where his mouth is. Completely revamp the culture here, on this board that represents his company.

IMO YC could legitimately respond to that one like Odetta did when Joan Baez said "you taught me how to sing": "Oh baby, don't you blame me for that".

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#499

Post by prepend »

chasing wrote: post #495

'More recently, I’ve seen credible people working on ideas like pharmaceuticals for intelligence augmentation, genetic engineering, and radical life extension leave San Francisco because they found the reaction to their work to be so toxic. “If people live a lot longer it will be disastrous for the environment, so people working on this must be really unethical” was a memorable quote I heard this year.' That's toxic?…

I’ve had similar experiences. And yeah, being told your work is unethical over something so arbitrary is depressing.

It’s only one anecdote as part of an article so I don’t understand your complaint. I suppose a thorough study of attitudes would be better.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#500

Post by bromuro »

kfcm wrote: post #67

This isn't happening in only SF, or only in tech. It's happening all over, and across the spectrum of ideas. Is the argument that social media is tearing apart our society correct? I think it goes deeper than that, and that it's tech in general. We've grown impatient with right-swipe, immediate communication (whether through texting or calling on a cell phone; remember when you had to find a phone, or wait until you…

I still remember my excitement after getting my first iphone (4), and how fast later i realized that my happiness visibly worsened. Now after 25 years working in IT I’m saving money to start a new life in the countryside. I tremble when some people says we must teach programming to children.
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