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E Pur Si Muove

blog.samaltman.com

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Re: E Pur Si Muove

#401

Post by kbenson »

nine_k wrote: post #342
letsbehonest wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While on HN, you can feel the general air of acceptable ideas. Sam Altman is not concerned that a leftist can't have a sane discussion on this website. But he IS concerned that a bigoted racist can't be openly bigoted at work. Weird. I wonder why it is that Sam Altman is so concerned about the rights of bigots to be openly bigoted? Definitely couldn't be related to his relationship with Peter Thiel. No way...

I don't see left agenda oppressed on HN. E.g. posts about universal basic income, allegedly a rather left-wing policy, appear here often, are highly upvoted and, to my mind, discussed in a quite civil manner.

It's always easier to assume that your argument is being dismissed because the other side is ignorant or intolerant. As dang points out in a sibling comment to yours, it seems to be universal.

I've found most of HN willing to dive fairly deep on any topic as long as you remain respectful and don't present your self unwilling to actually reconsider your opinion. The problem is that all too often, assholes don't realize that how much an asshole they are comes across very clearly in how they present themselves or their ideas, and many people don't like interacting with assholes. The other problem is that we're all assholes sometimes.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#402

Post by dang »

ThrowAwayFSp wrote: post #392
Houshalter wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's how they justify it, but empirically it doesn't seem to be the case. E.g. liberals are pretty tolerant of minority groups with more extreme opinions than average conservatives. E.g. muslims are pretty strongly against homosexuals among other things. But they don't receive anywhere near the same level of hate and vitriol even moderate conservatives will get. I think it's just based on how much of a threat a gro…

Where do you draw the "control a woman's body" line. Let's say a woman choose to abort on partial birth a healthy baby because she do not want it. Is a healthy 9 months gestation newborn part of the woman's body? You're spinning the argument and calling the other side "intolerant". You're part of the problem Altman is mentioning. Sad thing is that probably you are not aware of that.

This is off topic and we definitely don't need what will happen if we go there.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#403

Post by marchenko »

dmode wrote: post #274

I have no idea what this article was about. As someone who grew up in India, lived extensively in Europe and Arizona before settling down in the Bay Area, and travel to China 2-3 times a year, I find Bay Area by far to be the most open, tolerant, accepting places I have ever lived. And it is not even comparable. And it is borne out by simple stats. People vote with their feet. Bay Area is almost a majority minority a…

It sounds like sama just discovered that sacred cows are different in different locations. The experience of discussing whether women are are predisposed to avoid tech careers, or the problems associated with ethnic minorities, as a wealthy American speaking with Chinese startup leaders and other expats is probably different from that of speaking to a US audience. I suspect part of the reason is that the wider US audience is more likely to include ethnic minorities, politically active gay people, and ambitious women in tech[1]. I doubt a discussion of Chinese sacred cows would be as open - in fact, I doubt most westerners without expat experience could even detect the absence of many locally controversial topics from the discussion.

PC stifling of speech often gets laid at the feet of politics and academia, but the hyperbolic increase in thought-policing really seems to be a tech-related phenomenon intersecting with corporate priorities. There are a lot of people outside of tech and SF who are willing to discuss hard topics as long as everyone is willing to have skin in the game.

[1]although I acknowledge that there are a lot of women in Chinese tech and that the social dynamic is different, and suspect that they are more receptive to the idea of sex differences in occupational preferences.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#404

Post by agarden »

cortesoft wrote: post #333
btilly wrote: post #147

http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html is very relevant about how we got here. As Paul Graham said then, the biggest threats to free thought and speech come from people who have just enough power to enforce taboos, and not enough to be confident in their power. In this case the political ideology that is stifling thought is one that has nationwide lost Congress, the Senate and the Presidency. Which naturally results in a…

Well, another way of putting it is "Liberals are tolerant of anything except intolerance" If I want to be a tolerant and accepting person, do I have to accept someone who wants to deny a group of people to marry the person they love? Do I have to tolerate someone who wants to control a woman's body? This is similar to a love of freedom; I want everyone to have freedom, but that means having to restrict the freedom to…

If you want to be an accepting person, you have to first decide who it is you are wanting to accept. If you are simply wanting to be as accepting and tolerant as you can possibly be, then it would seem that you would want to accept as many people as possible. That would suggest that you would rather accept the >30% of the country that considers homosexuality unacceptable than the Almost everyone is happy to tolerate everyone who doesn't try to interfere with them, their preferences, and their beliefs. Racists are generally happy to tolerate black people as long as they sit in the back of the bus, use their own drinking fountains, and remember to say 'sir'. Even racists tolerate those who tolerate them.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#405

Post by dguaraglia »

conanbatt wrote: post #325
dguaraglia wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference with Argentina is that Damore would have been told to make a constructive argument backed by actual science, rather than be hailed or STFU. Instead, in the US people were hailing him as a martyr of PC culture and telling everyone that they should "respect all points of view" (no matter how flawed or ignorant they are.) Argentine culture has it's advantages, but "tolerance to new ideas" is not one of th…

I dont hold argentina as the standard of free speech, its just how a short stay outside of the U.S. made cultural changes very noticeable for me, and for the worse. ---- If politicians in Argentina had to resign the way they do in the US for what they say, anarchist would get their way.

Let me introduce you to 2001, the year we had five presidents in the span of a couple months: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/December_2001_riots_in_Argenti...

The perceived notion that people have to resign for "what they say or think" in the US is overblown.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#406

Post by dang »

xster wrote: post #355
btilly wrote: post #147

http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html is very relevant about how we got here. As Paul Graham said then, the biggest threats to free thought and speech come from people who have just enough power to enforce taboos, and not enough to be confident in their power. In this case the political ideology that is stifling thought is one that has nationwide lost Congress, the Senate and the Presidency. Which naturally results in a…

> Liberals are tolerant of anything except being conservative As a non-American liberal, I'd argue 'liberals' are tolerant of anything except non-American liberals. Try bringing up progressive topics in polite company and see how long you can last before becoming a conspiracy theorist / radical. You agree with every UN member countries wrt Palestine/Israel except 2? Oh, we don't talk about that here. You want to supp…

I know you have real points but bringing them up in this way in this discussion is just going to create a flamewar. That may be part of the problem you're articulating but it's also a fact, and we have to have a fire department here or the place will burn up. So please don't.

We have no choice but to work within the window of tolerance of the body of this community. I don't mean 'tolerance' in the virtue sense but in the physical sense of excessive stimulus triggering meltdown.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#407

Post by fiter »

mitchty wrote: post #270
rb808 wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree, but when I was walking to the train station this morning with a 25F blast of wind going straight through my coat I was actually thinking how great CA would be. :)

As a midwesterner that has ran in -30(F/C doesn't matter at that point), tourist. >.<

What do you set your thermostat to?

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#408

Post by AlwaysBCoding »

geofft wrote: post #373
workthrowaway27 wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're being censored because of their ideas though... I'm not sure how you can draw that distinction.

Not necessarily - they're being censored because of their refusal to engage with the scientific community and insistence on presenting their views as scientific when they're not (e.g., Murray) or because their purpose is antics and not ideas (e.g., Yiannopoulos). Both of those are things that a university should disinvite speakers for.

I went to my sisters graduation at Northwestern where Stephen Colbert was the keynote speaker. I don't see a difference between the antics of Colbert and Yiannapoulos other than what tribe they represent. One is a keynote graduation speaker, one has riots that prevent them from speaking on campus.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#409

Post by Animats »

Things you can't say in San Francisco:

- Gays are about 3% of the US population. Higher in a few big cities, lower in rural areas. Transgenders, maybe 0.4%.

- About half the US population supported Trump. His supporters have legitimate complaints.

- Average US Asian IQ: 105. Average US white IQ: 100. Average US black IQ: 85.

- "Medical marijuana" is a joke.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#410

Post by conanbatt »

dguaraglia wrote: post #405
conanbatt wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont hold argentina as the standard of free speech, its just how a short stay outside of the U.S. made cultural changes very noticeable for me, and for the worse. ---- If politicians in Argentina had to resign the way they do in the US for what they say, anarchist would get their way.

Let me introduce you to 2001, the year we had five presidents in the span of a couple months: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/December_2001_riots_in_Argenti... The perceived notion that people have to resign for "what they say or think" in the US is overblown.

I'm Argentinian.
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