E Pur Si Muove • Hacker News Board

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#381

Post by ThrowAwayFSp » Thu, Dec 14, 2017, 8:34 PM UTC

ak_yo wrote: post #238

olympus wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what if A said this: There are obviously genetic differences between races. That's how AncestryDNA can tell where you came from. So if there are obviously genetic differences, why can't I talk about the pros/cons of being black without being hateful? Some differences are going to be objectively better or worse, why I can't we talk about them without going into full blown racism? If we acknowledge the fact that th…

I think it's completely fair to think that a lot of these thoughts are coming from a good place. But the people who are espousing these perspectives need to understand that there's a lot of really intense history behind ideas like this. When these ideas have surfaced in the past, it usually hasn't really been about "fixing the cons" -- and even when it has, it often has major unanticipated and unintended consequences…

So, to be clear: your ideas are dangerous and must be suppressed. An easy way to do that is to fire you after we all complain rending our clothes. See: Damore.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#382

Post by ryanwaggoner » Thu, Dec 14, 2017, 8:35 PM UTC

creaghpatr wrote: post #197

guelo wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As if southerners aren't constantly cursing or making fun of "San Francisco values".

People in the south don't think about San Francisco at all. Only the Fox News anchors based in New York but charged with representing the politics of the south care about San Francisco.

This is not true. I live in the South (Nashville) and I've heard (and overheard) multiple disparaging comments about people from the coasts. It's not like they're obsessed, but they talk about NY and CA as much as NY and CA talked about the South when I lived in both places.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#383

Post by ThrowAwayFSp » Thu, Dec 14, 2017, 8:36 PM UTC

Avshalom wrote: post #194

psyc wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re leaving out the part where B whips up a Twitter mob to demand A be fired and ousted from the industry.

You're leaving out the part where A whips up a real mob and lynches somebody. And what do you think has a stronger chilling effect: the possibility of being fired or the possibility of being murdered?

So you're the D that never read the paper?

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#384

Post by kbenson » Thu, Dec 14, 2017, 8:36 PM UTC

hsod wrote: post #314

throwaway34689 wrote: post #148

Of the places I've lived (not necessarily in order): - Deep South (18 years - born + raised) - Boston MA (5 years @ college then job) - NYC (6+ years) - Los Angeles (1yr @ startup) - San Diego (1yr @ startup) - Bay Area (6 years, including 4+ at household name tech company) I found the Bay Area (and SF in particular) to be the most intolerant, rigid and inflexible culture I've ever lived and worked in. I've never enc…

I think the use of the word "tolerance" here muddies things. To the extent that tolerance is a virtue, it refers to tolerating other people for what they are , not what they do . There are gray areas here of course, but there are plenty of places where that distinction is clear. I don't think political tolerance is inherently virtuous. If a coworker tells me they don't think women are suited for technical work then I…

> To the extent that tolerance is a virtue, it refers to tolerating other people for what they are, not what they do. There are gray areas here of course

The gray areas are miles wide in many cases. Tolerance of what people are is fairly easy for most people to agree on, but in some cases what people do and what people are is disagreed upon. That is, to some degree, the crux of the debate about homosexuality still. People disagree on whether it's something people do, or are. At the same time, an older debate under similar grounds (but, ironically with less evidence for it being towards the are end of the spectrum) is religion. Are you a Christian, Jew or Muslim, or do you just practice those religions?

I don't think boiling it down to are and do particularly helps for a lot of the really controversial topics we are currently dealing with.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#385

Post by ThrowAwayFSp » Thu, Dec 14, 2017, 8:39 PM UTC

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #225

youdontknowtho wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I keep hearing that from people saying things like... "I think black people are genetically inferior." ...followed by... "Why can't we have a free exchange of ideas?" What if the ideas are unethical? There is a lot of that going around these days. Life extension is one that comes up quite a bit, because the question doesn't seem to involve life extension for all, but life extension for a few who can afford it. Or, if…

>What if the ideas are unethical? Propositional claims, in and of themselves, cannot be unethical. It's just a category error. Now, if you're talking about the propositional claim, "black people are genetically inferior", well, as far as I know, it's contradicted by reams of available evidence and supported by little to none. You might as well claim the moon landings were faked, and, I suppose, many racists probably…

The average of several traits in different populations are (obviously) different. Sometimes with more than 1SD difference. OTOH variance withing the same group is bigger. If you say this, you'll be ostracized in academia and fired at your work by mob pressure. Even Altman can freely speak about how chilling is the PC culture. Mentioning China as a place where he can speak "freely" should have been a hint to you.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#386

Post by dmode » Thu, Dec 14, 2017, 8:39 PM UTC

MrJagil wrote: post #299

dmode wrote: post #274

I have no idea what this article was about. As someone who grew up in India, lived extensively in Europe and Arizona before settling down in the Bay Area, and travel to China 2-3 times a year, I find Bay Area by far to be the most open, tolerant, accepting places I have ever lived. And it is not even comparable. And it is borne out by simple stats. People vote with their feet. Bay Area is almost a majority minority a…

Can you expand on your experience as a brown man in Denmark? Where did you live? I would like your take on it.

I used to live in Frederiksberg, which is practically Copenhagen. I loved Denmark, but as with most European countries, there is a specific definition of what "Dane" means. Foreigners will always be an outsider(vastly different than living in the Bay Area). I also sensed some discomfort with "white collar" brown folks. As most of Danish interactions with brown people is limited to Doner Kebab restaurants and Afghani run grocery stores. There were very few non-white white collar workers. I also faced outright racial hostility, but thankfully those instances were very few. If you are considering a move to Denmark, think about this is an European moving to India and China. It is like expat living as chances of integrating to a Danish society will be minimal.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#387

Post by frgtpsswrdlame » Thu, Dec 14, 2017, 8:42 PM UTC

slededit wrote: post #367

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the argument isn't fallacious and it's not an ad hom... Extending life expectancy will increase human population and harm our environment and that harm to the environment will harm future generations so individuals working towards extending life expectancy are hurting future generations and that's unethical which makes them unethical. You can disagree with the argument but it's not fallacious.

By that argument all medical care is unethical. Regardless ideas need to be discussed divorced from the people presenting them. Medical care is no more or less ethical because Hitler is making the argument.

Yes but this isn't about presenting an argument, the one example given in this blog post is about someone working towards a goal. If that goal is unethical and the person is working towards it we should be able to call them unethical. It's not about whether Hitler is saying medical care is good, it's about whether someone working to exterminate the Jews can be called unethical.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#388

Post by dmode » Thu, Dec 14, 2017, 8:42 PM UTC

jdtang13 wrote: post #380

alehul wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're absolutely right that the Bay Area offers more freedom than India or China in terms of safely espousing your views. In our lack of government-imposed restrictions, however, we've come to restrict ourselves as a society, and many believe that we've taken these restrictions too far. America has progressed through openness to ideological diversity, and through healthily engaging in debate. We're lucky that those…

No, not true. The Bay Area is ideologically safer in only two regards: you can criticize the city, and you can criticize the government. If you have personal beliefs that are even a tiny bit different from orthodoxy, Beijing is a far safer place.

Really ? Do you openly discuss LGBT rights in Beijing ? What about rights of Uighur folks in China ? Do you discuss that in Beijing ? What about Tibetian rights ? Is that discussed ?

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#389

Post by ryanwaggoner » Thu, Dec 14, 2017, 8:42 PM UTC

xster wrote: post #355

btilly wrote: post #147

http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html is very relevant about how we got here. As Paul Graham said then, the biggest threats to free thought and speech come from people who have just enough power to enforce taboos, and not enough to be confident in their power. In this case the political ideology that is stifling thought is one that has nationwide lost Congress, the Senate and the Presidency. Which naturally results in a…

> Liberals are tolerant of anything except being conservative As a non-American liberal, I'd argue 'liberals' are tolerant of anything except non-American liberals. Try bringing up progressive topics in polite company and see how long you can last before becoming a conspiracy theorist / radical. You agree with every UN member countries wrt Palestine/Israel except 2? Oh, we don't talk about that here. You want to supp…

This is a tired trope: "American liberals aren't real global liberals, they're actually conservatives (or at best, centrists) just masquerading!"

Nothing you listed seems even slightly crazy to me, nor anything that a good chunk of American liberals would disagree with. Or a non-trivial fraction of conservatives, for that matter.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#390

Post by BinaryIdiot » Thu, Dec 14, 2017, 8:42 PM UTC

This thread is pretty much useless. It's just hundreds of "my anecdotal point beats your anecdotal point". Scrolling through at least 95% of everything I saw is either "I've lived in the following 5+ places and the Bay Area is the worst" or the exact inverse of that.

I don't even entirely understand the blog post. Did Sam see mean comments on the internet then write up something about how we can't talk about things because of said mean comments?

Something everyone, including Sam, is missing is this: everyone has different experiences than you and, more importantly, in an anonymous setting such as the internet you're going to get extreme views not necessarily representing the majority far more frequently (and more loudly) than anything that could be considered moderate. Stop giving so much of a shit what other people think.