Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

E Pur Si Muove

blog.samaltman.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

321–330 of 853 posts

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#321

Post by mikeash »

throwaway8766 wrote: post #159
amsheehan wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I would take away from that notion is that large is relative. A large portion of the country still has fewer people than New York City. I am of course, not trying to start a flame war either, but my take on it is that those sorts of issues would be inappropriate to bring up at work or in a job interview in the first place, regardless of your position. Based on your description, I believe I probably espouse the o…

That's a great point and worth clarifying. I agree that neither side is super appropriate to bring up at work. I'm referring more so to circumstances like your friend who is a Trump supporter. It also gets murkier nowadays because companies are expected to take stances on social issues, and with certain ones are criticized when they don't.

Companies have always been expected to take stances on social issues. Within living memory, companies in many parts of the country were required by law to segregate their customers by race. In other parts of the country, many companies were expected to do this as well, although it wasn't a legal requirement. Similar things were true for companies' treatment of same-sex couples, unmarried heterosexual couples, single women, and non-Christians.

The main difference I see is that the expected stances are more liberal than they used to be, and the penalties for failing to conform tend to be much less severe.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#322

Post by eli_gottlieb »

SnacksOnAPlane wrote: post #226
CalChris wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh please. Y'all campaign against San Francisco values. Pelosi is basically a code word for it even though she's from a Baltimore political dynasty. https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=644311... San Francisco values gets repeated by Newt Gingrich, Bill O'Reilly, Hannity, Rush, ... at every opportunity. Sorry to link to Breitbart, but here's Roy Moore ranting on about San Francisco. http://www.breitb…

Why are you associating those douchebags with the south? Newt I get, but aren't the rest of them in NYC? The real divide in this country is rural vs. urban. Cities in the south are plenty progressive, and rural areas in the rest of the country are plenty conservative. I've lived in Boston and Atlanta, and Atlanta is a much more tolerant, friendly place.

>I've lived in Boston and Atlanta, and Atlanta is a much more tolerant, friendly place.

Care to say what you experienced in Boston?

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#323

Post by alehul »

Diederich wrote: post #280
throwaway34689 wrote: post #148

Of the places I've lived (not necessarily in order): - Deep South (18 years - born + raised) - Boston MA (5 years @ college then job) - NYC (6+ years) - Los Angeles (1yr @ startup) - San Diego (1yr @ startup) - Bay Area (6 years, including 4+ at household name tech company) I found the Bay Area (and SF in particular) to be the most intolerant, rigid and inflexible culture I've ever lived and worked in. I've never enc…

> Deep South (18 years - born + raised) If I may ask, where, more specifically? I grew up in southern California, and my wife grew up in Columbus, Georgia. We met in the midwest and lived there 15 or so years, and so visited Columbus frequently. For the last 4 months of her dad's life, we lived in Columbus. We've lived in the SF Bay Area for the past 8 years. > [SF Bay Area ...] most intolerant, rigid and inflexible…

That's an interesting point.

As someone who grew up in a poverty-stricken neighborhood of Boston, I'm also familiar with tension, and I remember it being far more racially-defined within the poor communities than elsewhere. Upon moving to nicer areas, however, the tension felt more like rich vs poor, with race (very sadly) often signaling to someone's level of wealth. They also seemed less tension-prone overall, in comparison to the poorer communities.

What I mean to say is that:

1. Tension between races seemed to primarily exist at the poorer levels, and that at the wealthier levels, the tension between classes very much overrode any tension between races.

2. Wealthy communities just seem to be more educated and accepting, as they see the better [1] individuals of all races of people.

I haven't spent too much time in the Bay Area, but would you possibly say that:

1. The wealth inequality in the Bay Area creates enough of a class divide to where the racial divide isn't noticeable?

2. Alternatively, does the racial diversity in the wealthy of the Bay Area remove stigmas that result in racism altogether?

I'd be interested in your thoughts! I'm not aiming to counter either, but just curious.

[1] By 'better,' I don't mean to pass judgment on any people; just that people in worse conditions in life will often be forced or incentivized into worse actions. For example, a child's friend is far less likely to steal their toy or game in a wealthier community than poorer. It's not evil, it's just worse conditions resulting in worse actions.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#324

Post by fourthark »

btilly wrote: post #249
leroy_masochist wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A competent lawyer can fix this if your NY-based employer attempts to put such language in your employment agreement. Speaking from experience several times over.

If there is no such language in your employment agreement, that is the default arrangement. I'm not going to bother having to get a lawyer to fix something that shouldn't be a problem in the first place. In California it isn't a problem. I'm firmly convinced that this fact is one of the reasons why Silicon Valley is in California and not New York.

Pretty sure you'll find the causation was the other way around.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#325

Post by conanbatt »

dguaraglia wrote: post #318
conanbatt wrote: post #75

I remember being in argentina a couple of years back and seeing the "Political correctness" pro-trump slogan and thinking how dumb that sounded. Moved back to SF, and there is a HUGE difference of what it was for me 5 years ago. The people I know are way more cautious and the people I don't are even more afraid. The Damore essay is still one of the unspeakables. I know I fear getting fired if i publicly said i agreed…

The difference with Argentina is that Damore would have been told to make a constructive argument backed by actual science, rather than be hailed or STFU. Instead, in the US people were hailing him as a martyr of PC culture and telling everyone that they should "respect all points of view" (no matter how flawed or ignorant they are.) Argentine culture has it's advantages, but "tolerance to new ideas" is not one of th…

I dont hold argentina as the standard of free speech, its just how a short stay outside of the U.S. made cultural changes very noticeable for me, and for the worse.

----

If politicians in Argentina had to resign the way they do in the US for what they say, anarchist would get their way.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#326

Post by Jun8 »

btilly wrote: post #147

http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html is very relevant about how we got here. As Paul Graham said then, the biggest threats to free thought and speech come from people who have just enough power to enforce taboos, and not enough to be confident in their power. In this case the political ideology that is stifling thought is one that has nationwide lost Congress, the Senate and the Presidency. Which naturally results in a…

Also this essay is relevant: http://www.paulgraham.com/wids.html. This was the start of souring of Paul Graham's relationship with the CA political correctness, I guess (do a search on "paul graham sexist" and you'll get a ton of articles from Dec 2013.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#327

Post by kelukelugames »

dmode wrote: post #292
throwaway34689 wrote: post #148

Of the places I've lived (not necessarily in order): - Deep South (18 years - born + raised) - Boston MA (5 years @ college then job) - NYC (6+ years) - Los Angeles (1yr @ startup) - San Diego (1yr @ startup) - Bay Area (6 years, including 4+ at household name tech company) I found the Bay Area (and SF in particular) to be the most intolerant, rigid and inflexible culture I've ever lived and worked in. I've never enc…

Considering that 50% of the people in the Bay Area are foreign born, and have no experience of the South, I find your comment "a self-righteous, smug and viscerally hostile attitude to other parts of the country" to be hyperbolic. May be you are projecting based upon a few interactions ?

Have you seen this clip?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFYRkzznsc0

The man is an elected official in Alabama. Also an idiot and a bigot who think only Christians can be elected to Congress. It's okay to look down on him for being ignorant, but a lot of the comments attack his regional accent. That's not okay.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#328

Post by colordrops »

mikeash wrote: post #304
colordrops wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe he is mostly talking about day to day could conversations among friends, acquaintances, and coworkers. I lived in Beijing for 9 years and I can tell you those types of conversations are absolutely more free in China. It's common to tell someone they are fat or ask them how much money they make without people taking offense. You can discuss various social topics and take a less popular opinion without being…

Are they really more free, or do they just seem more free because the taboos don't quite match up, and you see them violating yours without thinking about the fact that they have their own which they're avoiding? You say it's common to talk about weight or salary without people taking offense. Fair. On the other hand, in the US it's common to talk about the misdeeds of the President, express disagreement with the leg…

With older crowds you need to be familiar before talking politics. Younger people talk pretty freely about politics in social settings. To be fair that's not much different from the US.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#329

Post by letsbehonest »

nine_k wrote: post #306
dmode wrote: post #274

I have no idea what this article was about. As someone who grew up in India, lived extensively in Europe and Arizona before settling down in the Bay Area, and travel to China 2-3 times a year, I find Bay Area by far to be the most open, tolerant, accepting places I have ever lived. And it is not even comparable. And it is borne out by simple stats. People vote with their feet. Bay Area is almost a majority minority a…

While in SF / SV, can you feel the general air of the ideas acceptable here? A small experiment: take an idea which obviously contradicts that air, and imagine rationally discussing it with people who you typically meet in SF. Will it be more than slightly uncomfortable? Scott Alexander wrote this great piece, I leave a link to it here: http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/30/i-can-tolerate-anything... For instant enlig…

While on HN, you can feel the general air of acceptable ideas.

Sam Altman is not concerned that a leftist can't have a sane discussion on this website. But he IS concerned that a bigoted racist can't be openly bigoted at work.

Weird. I wonder why it is that Sam Altman is so concerned about the rights of bigots to be openly bigoted? Definitely couldn't be related to his relationship with Peter Thiel. No way...

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#330

Post by mikeash »

colordrops wrote: post #328
mikeash wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are they really more free, or do they just seem more free because the taboos don't quite match up, and you see them violating yours without thinking about the fact that they have their own which they're avoiding? You say it's common to talk about weight or salary without people taking offense. Fair. On the other hand, in the US it's common to talk about the misdeeds of the President, express disagreement with the leg…

With older crowds you need to be familiar before talking politics. Younger people talk pretty freely about politics in social settings. To be fair that's not much different from the US.

That's definitely not been my experience. I haven't heard anyone talk politics at all, with me or with each other, aside from occasional bits about American politics. And that covers a wide range of ages and social familiarity.
Post reply on HN