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E Pur Si Muove

blog.samaltman.com

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Re: E Pur Si Muove

#281

Post by bradleyjg »

throwaway8766 wrote: post #64

I'm extremely aware of this as someone who is socially conservative in terms of abortion, gay marriage, trans issues, etc (seriously not trying to start a flame war). It's weird knowing that a large portion of the country has similar values to me, but in a major city I can never mention these things or I'll immediately become unemployable. It doesn't matter that these things have zero impact on my behavior at work; y…

> but in a major city I can never mention these things or I'll immediately become unemployable.

The situation isn't great right now, I agree. But wild exaggeration doesn't help. It just makes people that you might be able to convince that the situation isn't great dismiss everything you are saying because of that wild exaggeration. Or at least some of those people, there may be an age divide here. But the point is if you want to be maximally persuasive you should avoid wild exaggeration.

I live in a major city in the US. I know two or three quite vocal Trump supporters. Yes, they face social sanctions. Yes, it might affect their career on the margin when it comes time to look at e.g. who to promote or who to lay off. No they aren't unemployed, much less unemployable.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#282

Post by Cshelton »

maxerickson wrote: post #253
Cshelton wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To add to that as someone who grew up in Dallas, Texas, has lived in what many consider the most "liberal" parts of the U.S., and now back in Dallas (Texas forever); The thing I hear the most from people who have moved to Dallas recently or visiting is "Everyone here is so nice". I hear it all the time. Even work colleges who are in town for business. I heard one say a few weeks ago how nice people are here after som…

I think, in Texas at least, don't know about other areas of the south, many people will be surprised from how open people are in the cities. Now, in rural areas... yeah, no promise there. Rural people will love you at first site, but if you mention anything anything that contradicts their bible or the right to have a gun, most likely not. The cities surprise people who visit here though. They were not expecting the a…

No, I'm saying there is a difference between Dallas, Austin, Houston, San Antonio and the rest of Texas, like rural east and west Texas.

I think you have to compare apples to apples here. San Fran to Dallas/Houston/etc. You can't compare rural west Texas to San Fran or the rural wine country around SF to Dallas.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#283

Post by CalChris »

SnacksOnAPlane wrote: post #257
CalChris wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Roy Moore and Newt Gingrich are about as South as South gets and they definitely campaigned against San Francisco values. Newt Gingrich essentially defined the modern Republican Party's approach to campaigning and governing.

First, Roy Moore lost. It wasn't a resounding loss, but he did lose. Second, acting like an entire region as a monoculture is stupid and unproductive. We're all very, very different, and while there are some trends that are more prevalent in a region, that doesn't mean that the people who believe those things are backwards. Perhaps it means that you just haven't tried to see things from their perspective. The lack of…

Yes, you are all very, very different. So are we.

But it remains that really starting with Gingrich that conservatives have mounted a long media campaign against liberals which has been personified as Pelosi and codewritten as San Francisco values.

The reverse is not the case. This was one sided but it was also Gingrich and Republicans only path to power. It worked as an election strategy but not as a governing philosophy. So if you are complaining about the cohesion of the country, you really should start there.

I lived in the South. I have family in the South.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#284

Post by alehul »

Cyberdog wrote: post #228
alehul wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Woah. I had no idea about Apple's chief of diversity; she was an African American woman who even agreed with a need for gender and race diversity, but merely added ideological diversity. Apple firing her and backpedaling on a need for ideological diversity is really disappointing to me, and this will seriously affect my decision on buying a HomePod next year / future Apple devices. It surprises me that Sam didn't inc…

Well, as I said in the other subthread, I don't necessarily blame Apple for this - they're just doing what's best for business. And what are your other options for spy-speaker providers? Amazon and Google? Do we think that they wouldn't have done the same thing if one of their employers had faced the same backlash? You can't place the companies you buy from under too strict an ideological purity test, either in one d…

You're very much right.

I recall Facebook arguing that Peter Thiel offered diversity to their board, and I don't think anyone was fired for it.. sadly, though, they're also arguably the most frightening behemoth when it comes to tracking users.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#285

Post by kbenson »

kinkrtyavimoodh wrote: post #255
olympus wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a pretty good point. People complain about Californian culture being too sensitive but choose to stay there. If your startup can't survive unless it's right next to Silicon Valley then it probably deserves to die anyway. NYC has plenty of tech talent to work with. Altman is not staying in SV because he can't afford to move. He's staying in the area because he actually prefers working with the people he's comp…

"If your startup can't survive unless it's right next to Silicon Valley then it probably deserves to die anyway." Do you actually genuinely believe these absolutist statements, or you make them just coz they make for good sound bites?

You just classified a statement that includes "probably" as absolutist. Perhaps you should reexamine it and consider whether your own context is causing you to interpret it slightly differently than intended.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#286

Post by tsjackson »

jerf wrote: post #248
tsjackson wrote: post #221

I'm naturally sympathetic to the sentiment, but this post fails to acknowledge, much less address, the major societal changes that have precipitated our current situation. Censorship is a reaction to our society's increasing inability to combat misinformation. Over the last 20 years, a huge, extremely influential right wing media establishment has sprung up. It has clearly demonstrated its ability to convince million…

You're not refuting his point... you're demonstrating it.

The main thrust of the argument seems to be that we should do our best to stop censorship. I'm arguing that we probably shouldn't. Our society is not really equipped to handle the free exchange of ideas at this point.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#287

Post by baxtr »

As someone who doesn't live in the States, I can't follow the article. It's strangely abstract. What are the controversial ideas he is discussing in China but not in the States? Did I miss those examples in the text? I think that would help a lot to understand problem.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#289

Post by 50CNT »

kneath wrote: post #192

The most powerful man on earth, Pope Paul V demanded Galileo silence his thoughts on heliocentrism. He was then submitted to the Roman Inquisition, found guilty, and imprisoned for the rest of his life. Somehow this is seen as comparable in Sam's mind to a reasonable debate about ethics (“If people live a lot longer it will be disastrous for the environment, so people working on this must be really unethical”). Quite…

You're assuming that the values of the culture you're living in are necessarily better or more ethical than those held by an individual. But even assuming that is true, the inability to voice ones opinions without ostracism doesn't solve disagreement, it just hides it. Whilst there may be a tremendously pleasing and unproductive perceived homogeneity of opinion around you, that facade is pulled with the curtain of the voting booth.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#290

Post by CPLX »

btilly wrote: post #147

http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html is very relevant about how we got here. As Paul Graham said then, the biggest threats to free thought and speech come from people who have just enough power to enforce taboos, and not enough to be confident in their power. In this case the political ideology that is stifling thought is one that has nationwide lost Congress, the Senate and the Presidency. Which naturally results in a…

> The result is, as I've heard it put, Liberals are tolerant of anything except being conservative.

That's a clever slogan. But the logical response to that would be to say that liberals are tolerant of everything except intolerance.

Which as a factual statement is of course arguable, but as a premise is certainly internally consistent.

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