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E Pur Si Muove

blog.samaltman.com

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Re: E Pur Si Muove

#231
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As if southerners aren't constantly cursing or making fun of "San Francisco values".

What do you consider southerners? As recently as two nights ago I helped entertain some startup founders from SF who were genuinely suprised that Houston (the 4th largest, soon 3rd largest city in the US) wasn't just a few strip malls.

Houston is always surprising to people who've never been there (and was surprising to me when I first moved there as a 19-year-old kid). It's among the friendliest places I've ever lived. And, for all its horrible traffic, the drivers are among the most polite I've seen, as well (though they drive terrifyingly fast on average). It's one of the biggest/best cities that nobody's ever heard of or thought about. Great music, arts, and food, on par with the best cities in the US, as well.

As an aside, there was a study many years ago about the friendliest cities, and New York and Houston were at the top of the list; both were considered surprising by the authors, I guess based on reputation. While the deep south was way down the list well into the "unfriendly" category, which also seemed surprising to the authors given the reputation for "southern hospitality", but I'm from the deep south and I wasn't surprised, at all. The deep south is, by and large, insular and mistrustful of outsiders, except in a few larger cities. Poverty makes for higher crime, as well (one of the tests of "friendliness" included leaving a wallet in public places and seeing whether it made it back to its owner with cash intact...in NYC and Houston it almost always did, in some other places, not so much), and the south is pretty poor on average.

But, Houston is not a "southern" city. It is an international city with a huge amount of people who've moved there from other states and countries. It doesn't feel southern, though it does feel like other big Texas cities to some degree. I don't really consider Texas the south, though small-town Texas kinda looks like small-town Georgia or whatever. But, also, small-town California is kinda like small-town Texas...lots of cow towns, oil towns, and farm towns, just like Texas. And, tends to be Republican-leaning, just like small-town Texas.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that life extension is dangerous and wrong and therefore people dedicating their lives to it today are unethical people. I haven't censored anyone or shut down any argument by saying this, and neither was I attempting to, so your point seems to be confused.

>I haven't censored anyone or shut down any argument by saying this You haven't shut down any argument by saying "anyone who works on this is a bad person"? Seriously? I happen to think the exact opposite: life extension is probably one of the most noble things we could possibly be working on. Imagine if Einstein were still alive. We never learn from history, maybe because the people who lived it are all dead now. Bu…

It is fine that you think the opposite and I'd be happy to keep talking about it. You're probably overestimating how much it means (to me) for me to regard someone as unethical.

I don't see how I can stop extrapolating from "action X is unethical because the expected consequences look like bad ones" to "this person who dearly wants to bring about action X is behaving unethically". I simply don't see them as being meaningfully different statements.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#233
post #108

I'm extremely aware of this as someone who is socially conservative in terms of abortion, gay marriage, trans issues, etc (seriously not trying to start a flame war). It's weird knowing that a large portion of the country has similar values to me, but in a major city I can never mention these things or I'll immediately become unemployable. It doesn't matter that these things have zero impact on my behavior at work; y…

From my perspective, I don't want to work in an environment where people are voicing their opinion that (e.g.) gay marriage is illegitimate or wrong. How am I supposed to work with someone who thinks a huge part of my life is immoral? I would have an incredibly hard time believing that that person was taking me seriously, really wanted to work with me, wasn't going to undercut me, or trusted me. It's not that you can…

[deleted]

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#234
post #5

Next time he's in China maybe he should think about donating some money to a local union and see how free the speech is there. I'm no fan of the Bay Area but comparing to China freedom of speech is a bit weird.

The SF type of free speech is just of a very different kind. In China the wrong political ideas can cause you trouble with the government and potentially in jail. In SF the wrong ideas or words can lead to rejection from your social circle and loss of your career. To a lot of people the latter is just as scary, if not scarier than facing a hostile government. A year in jail doesn't sound as bad to some as becoming a social pariah.

And the government is at least sort of predictable, and is unlikely to make you disappear without any warnings. Social circles and careers can flip at a moments notice based on criteria no one is exactly sure of. A less than favorable opinion on any racial or sexual minority group or gender? A too favorable opinion on something sexual? Some comment regarding a woman's appearance? Support for a certain political party? Not thinking some individual woman/minority is amazing? Desiring the (il)legality of guns? Desiring the (il)legality of abortion? Other opinions on healthcare? Expressing a preference to (fe)males for some occupation? Acting on the belief it is okay to flirt in a workplace environment? Believing 'political correctness' is bad? Thinking human engineering is a good thing? Being for/opposed to the trans movement? Having some religion? Not having a religion?

You never know which one of these is capable of killing off your career/social group. In your average environment today, you really just can't tell which of them will set off the bomb. So you're silent on all.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#235
Vibe I'm getting off this post is that it's ok to be PC and woke until that starts interfering with money getting absolutely everything it wants.

I am not surprised that he felt more comfortable in China...

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#236

You know Sam, if you stopped censoring controversial positions or posts from hacker news I might take you seriously. Coming from someone who is now almost automatically moved to the bottom of threads or the ridiculous "See More" section you all implemented, who as a result just doesn't post much anymore.

Could you please point at a few controversial topics (not off-topic discussion threads) that have been censored here?

I'm genuinely interested.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#237

Of the places I've lived (not necessarily in order): - Deep South (18 years - born + raised) - Boston MA (5 years @ college then job) - NYC (6+ years) - Los Angeles (1yr @ startup) - San Diego (1yr @ startup) - Bay Area (6 years, including 4+ at household name tech company) I found the Bay Area (and SF in particular) to be the most intolerant, rigid and inflexible culture I've ever lived and worked in. I've never enc…

as a counterpoint, i have a similar geographical history and felt and saw more raciscm in the south than elsewhere (although to be fair, it wasn't vastly more so).

what you're feeling in that smugness is an exercise of social power on you. my guess is that you're white, which is why you didn't feel racism in the south but did feel the smugness of the "coastal elite" (and why you tie those two things together in your mind).

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#238
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree. The exchange seems to go like this: A: "I think black people are genetically inferior." B: "I think that's a bigoted thing to say that has historically caused a lot of harm to a lot of people." A: "Why can't we have a free exchange of ideas?" Person B is engaging with that idea, it's just that they think it's completely indefensible. I have a hard time understanding how Person A thinks this conver…

But what if A said this: There are obviously genetic differences between races. That's how AncestryDNA can tell where you came from. So if there are obviously genetic differences, why can't I talk about the pros/cons of being black without being hateful? Some differences are going to be objectively better or worse, why I can't we talk about them without going into full blown racism? If we acknowledge the fact that th…

I think it's completely fair to think that a lot of these thoughts are coming from a good place. But the people who are espousing these perspectives need to understand that there's a lot of really intense history behind ideas like this. When these ideas have surfaced in the past, it usually hasn't really been about "fixing the cons" -- and even when it has, it often has major unanticipated and unintended consequences that cause serious harms.

I guess what I mean is that even when folks are talking about these things in good-intentioned ways, they're not appreciating the weightiness of the ideas they're throwing around -- and depending on your priors, it's reasonable to worry about that.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#239
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As if southerners aren't constantly cursing or making fun of "San Francisco values".

People in the south don't think about San Francisco at all. Only the Fox News anchors based in New York but charged with representing the politics of the south care about San Francisco.

Precisely.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#240
This was shockingly charitable. So many leftists hate the tenants of science, western culture, and wealth that they want to crush it under their heel.

The same people who oppose life extension on the grounds of the environmental cost probably applaud uneducated africans having 7 kids.

The people who oppose understanding a genetic basis of intelligence would tell you that each human is blank slate with equal potential to every other human.

The people who oppose wealth are the ones who advocate for full luxury socialism/communism.

Frankly, the only reason we have so many voices opposed to these good things is because our welfare state is too generous - people can survive on food stamps and ruminate about the moral evils of capitalism. If they had to get a job, their idle hands would do less of the devil's work.

It's good to see people waking up to the intolerance in San Francisco. I used to enjoy going there, now whenever I visit I have to change my phone background (away from a picture of a greek sculpture and the quote "tradition is not the worship of ashes but the preservation of fire") so no one tries to accuse me of being a n*zi and derails the business at hand. The world is worse for the intolerance but hard times make stronger people - what the world needs is titans and if we make a crucible for the titans then mission accomplished.

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