E Pur Si Muove • Hacker News Board

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#211

Post by AlwaysBCoding » Thu, Dec 14, 2017, 6:41 PM UTC

geofft wrote: post #52

workthrowaway27 wrote: post #21

I wonder how much of this is an outgrowth of the current university campus climate where opinions that don't fit into the predominant liberal worldview can't be voiced. I don't mean this as a criticism of liberals or liberalism specifically here, since I realize many conservatives would do the same about issues they care about if they had the power and numbers to.

> I wonder how much of this is an outgrowth of the current university campus climate where opinions that don't fit into the predominant liberal worldview can't be voiced. This does not seem to match the reality at university campuses - only the caricature by people who find it politically expedient to be seen as persecuted.

Just off the top of my head in the last year or so:

Social scientist Charles Murray was censored then physically assaulted at Middlebury because he wrote a book about the correlation between intelligence and success [https://youtu.be/a6EASuhefeI?t=19m25s]

Biology professor Bret Weinstein at Evergreen State College had himself and his family physically threatened because he refused to participate in a protest that asked all white people to leave campus for a day [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xq4Y87idawk]

A professor at Diablo Valley College smashed a dude with a bike lock just because he was on the different side of the political spectrum as he was. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ug34vogS3Fw]

Everything that Jordan Peterson had to go through at University of Toronto because he publicly opposed a draconian bill to forces professors to use specific pronouns when referring to students [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsG71YrB_Nw]

Lindsay Shepard at Laurier University had to face a star chamber from a 'diversity committee' because she showed a video clip of Jordan Peterson in class [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpFUvfAvKs4&t=1m18s]

And then there were the psychos that literally lit University of Berkeley on fire when Milo Yiannopoulos went to give a talk there [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi_vX0tknJM&t=4m45s]

etc...

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#212

Post by btilly » Thu, Dec 14, 2017, 6:41 PM UTC

CPLX wrote: post #29

California has been ridiculous for as long as I can remember. Come to New York, we have 20 million or so people who don't give a fuck about you and what you do all day as long as you don't clog up the subway stairs. It's quite lovely.

But your work for hire laws suck. Do something on the side while you have a main job, and guess what. By default your current employer owns the code that you wrote!

Been there, done that. Never again.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#213

Post by dominotw » Thu, Dec 14, 2017, 6:41 PM UTC

pmyteh wrote: post #184

dominotw wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand. I was responding to comment that said its totally baseless caricature. I think debaters did a good job of presenting evidence for their case. Why not give it a chance instead of saying its "staw poll", isn't any poll "straw poll" by that account? Also I never said it evidence of anything. What is an example of "evidence" in this particular case for you?

Ah, sorry. You said "results of this debate disagree with you", so I took that to be the debate's results (the vote), not the debate itself. (And as a side point, no to the straw poll question - there are certain statistical guarantees on the representativeness of polls as long as they're drawn from a random sample of the public, with debates about how far you can deviate from a random sample and still have results t…

> Self-selected polls, on the other hand, pretty much mean nothing.

Isn't our democracy built upon "self selected polling" , people who chose to go excesrice their right to vote. Its all meaningless?

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#214

Post by Avshalom » Thu, Dec 14, 2017, 6:41 PM UTC

librvf wrote: post #203

Avshalom wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're leaving out the part where A whips up a real mob and lynches somebody. And what do you think has a stronger chilling effect: the possibility of being fired or the possibility of being murdered?

> You're leaving out the part where A whips up a real mob and lynches somebody. Yeah because that hasn't happened, and if it did would be met with universal condemnation and be up against full weight of law enforcement and the legal system. > And what do you think has a stronger chilling effect: the possibility of being fired or the possibility of being murdered? If the possibility of being fired for ideas is highly…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching_in_the_United_States

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_crime#Victims_in_the_Unit...

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#215

Post by throwaway34689 » Thu, Dec 14, 2017, 6:42 PM UTC

creaghpatr wrote: post #197

guelo wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As if southerners aren't constantly cursing or making fun of "San Francisco values".

People in the south don't think about San Francisco at all. Only the Fox News anchors based in New York but charged with representing the politics of the south care about San Francisco.

Couldn't agree more. They are too busy having a great life down there. I definitely miss a lot of aspects of that culture.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#216

Post by colordrops » Thu, Dec 14, 2017, 6:42 PM UTC

rb808 wrote: post #5

Next time he's in China maybe he should think about donating some money to a local union and see how free the speech is there. I'm no fan of the Bay Area but comparing to China freedom of speech is a bit weird.

He's talking about "discussing controversial ideas" with people around you which is a very different think than challenging authority through public broadcast channels. This partisan stance that China is all bad and US is all good is ridiculous.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#217

Post by SnacksOnAPlane » Thu, Dec 14, 2017, 6:42 PM UTC

BenchRouter wrote: post #169

cjbprime wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that life extension is dangerous and wrong and therefore people dedicating their lives to it today are unethical people. I haven't censored anyone or shut down any argument by saying this, and neither was I attempting to, so your point seems to be confused.

> I think that life extension is dangerous and wrong and therefore people dedicating their lives to it today are unethical people. > I haven't shut down any argument by saying this You're being naive if you think that saying this doesn't end any hope of a reasonable discussion.

How so? Stating your thoughts with conviction ends any hope of a reasonable discussion? Maybe if you're afraid of confrontation. For me it's an invitation to debate.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#218

Post by ianai » Thu, Dec 14, 2017, 6:43 PM UTC

cryptoz wrote: post #126

ianai wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the lies on the internet thing will have to defeat itself. I remember being led astray by internet “wisdom” back in the first dot com bubble. Then I went and tried to apply that knowledge IRL. I don’t remember any single particular example, but I remember feeling downright embarrassed for believing something off the internet. I then learned to always take anything from the internet with hefty doses of salt ro…

Of course - we are all responsible for ourselves. The problem is that critical thinking is not taught in schools, and children grow up without it by the millions. A problem doesn't "defeat itself" and people who have trouble thinking critically cause problems for those who can do it naturally. Saying that there is nothing to worry about from having tens of millions of people believe lies, or saying "that problem will…

The onus is on you to propose a solution the “average person” may implement.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#219

Post by frgtpsswrdlame » Thu, Dec 14, 2017, 6:43 PM UTC

slededit wrote: post #204

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair fair but to be clear the one example in this article is calling someone unethical who is working to implement an idea. "people working on this must be really unethical"

It is not clear or obvious that allowing people to live longer is unethical. Resorting inmediately to an ad hominem is not an appropriate form of debate. No individual has a moral obligation to debate ideas. However if debate is shut down with fallacious arguments it limits the ability for the idea to progress. If this happens too often then progress will be slowed. That is the point of this post.

But the argument isn't fallacious and it's not an ad hom...

Extending life expectancy will increase human population and harm our environment and that harm to the environment will harm future generations so individuals working towards extending life expectancy are hurting future generations and that's unethical which makes them unethical. You can disagree with the argument but it's not fallacious.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#220

Post by colordrops » Thu, Dec 14, 2017, 6:43 PM UTC

ak_yo wrote: post #108

throwaway8766 wrote: post #64

I'm extremely aware of this as someone who is socially conservative in terms of abortion, gay marriage, trans issues, etc (seriously not trying to start a flame war). It's weird knowing that a large portion of the country has similar values to me, but in a major city I can never mention these things or I'll immediately become unemployable. It doesn't matter that these things have zero impact on my behavior at work; y…

From my perspective, I don't want to work in an environment where people are voicing their opinion that (e.g.) gay marriage is illegitimate or wrong. How am I supposed to work with someone who thinks a huge part of my life is immoral? I would have an incredibly hard time believing that that person was taking me seriously, really wanted to work with me, wasn't going to undercut me, or trusted me. It's not that you can…

I work with people like that all the time. I don't give a shit. As long as they aren't doing anything to directly harm me, then let them have their stupid opinion. It's better than the alternative of social oppression, because I'm sure I have some stupid opinions as well.