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E Pur Si Muove

blog.samaltman.com

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Re: E Pur Si Muove

#91

Post by psyc »

ak_yo wrote: post #57
youdontknowtho wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I keep hearing that from people saying things like... "I think black people are genetically inferior." ...followed by... "Why can't we have a free exchange of ideas?" What if the ideas are unethical? There is a lot of that going around these days. Life extension is one that comes up quite a bit, because the question doesn't seem to involve life extension for all, but life extension for a few who can afford it. Or, if…

I completely agree. The exchange seems to go like this: A: "I think black people are genetically inferior." B: "I think that's a bigoted thing to say that has historically caused a lot of harm to a lot of people." A: "Why can't we have a free exchange of ideas?" Person B is engaging with that idea, it's just that they think it's completely indefensible. I have a hard time understanding how Person A thinks this conver…

You’re leaving out the part where B whips up a Twitter mob to demand A be fired and ousted from the industry.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#92

Post by CharlesMerriam2 »

throwaway8766 wrote: post #64

I'm extremely aware of this as someone who is socially conservative in terms of abortion, gay marriage, trans issues, etc (seriously not trying to start a flame war). It's weird knowing that a large portion of the country has similar values to me, but in a major city I can never mention these things or I'll immediately become unemployable. It doesn't matter that these things have zero impact on my behavior at work; y…

One of things no one talks about: correlations. I have seen several of people lose their careers after become right wing spokespeople. These people work in difficult, ambiguous fields including patent prosecution (IP Law) and network security analysis. The fields are all about considering probable outcomes from ambiguous or untrustworthy data. They weren't pushed from their jobs; they stopped being able to juggle the ideas. Both employer and employee wanted them to leave by the time the left. They never succeeded again.

This terrifies me.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#93

Post by ianai »

Analemma_ wrote: post #41

I might have more sympathy for this post if I only knew about it in the abstract and wasn't familiar with specific cases. For example, lately among Bay Area types, and especially the Rationalist community, there's been a surge of interest in eugenics and scientific racism, now euphemistically rebranded as "human biodiversity". It tends to take the form of hand-wringing about how "people from certain regions" have low…

My reaction to that would be to tell them there’s exactly one correct way to treat people. As soon as you categorize someone not by what they reveal about their individual characteristics you’re being prejudicial. An individual will reveal that they’re more likely to commit crime in individualistic ways, for example. Ie pulling up a criminal background check is Ok (though you’ve got to read the contents), but segregation by skin color is very definitely not.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#94

Post by frgtpsswrdlame »

jstanley wrote: post #27
ealexhudson wrote: post #6

I think this is a radical simplification of what is a complex problem. Genetic engineering as a whole is known to be an area strewn with moral hazards, and not least harks back to some of the darkest days of 20th century science. Having an ethical outlook isn't a form of heresy, it's a form of societal safety. We need to accept that some of these ideas (probably not all - it's always difficult to get on the right sid…

Having an ethical outlook is a great idea. And it's good to criticise ideas you think are unethical. The point of the post is that just because a person presents an unethical idea doesn't make that person universally unethical. The point is to separate the ideas from the person presenting them, so that people can feel free to present novel ideas without fearing damage to their reputation if the ideas are unpopular.

Fearing damage to your reputation if your ideas are unpopular is literally how society works. Unethical ideas aren't just unethical out of the ether, they usually involve harming someone or some group. Putting those ideas forward should come with risk to yourself because it definitely comes with risks to others.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#95

Post by Gargoyle »

BadassFractal wrote: post #30
frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe Sam just has serious moral failings? If everywhere he goes people have a visceral reaction to what he's saying maybe there is some ethical shortcoming there. He's the common denominator in all the situations.

The point is that it's not everywhere, it's very much specific to the Bay area. The claim is that the Bay was a lot more open to controversial ideas in the past, and it's closing down as of today to only leave room for local ideological orthodoxy. Many of those ideas aren't controversial in most other parts of the world. The point, I'm assuming, is that Sam doesn't want to pack up his stuff and leave, he wants the Ba…

The right control experiment here would be to do more business in other areas.

Open a YC branch in another city. Sam and other partners can spend more time there and find out if it really is more conducive to new ideas.

If the other location(s) really does turn out to be more conducive, ramp it up and close down the Bay Area operation.

Maybe the Bay loses out, but other places and the wider world win.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#96

Post by pmyteh »

dominotw wrote: post #69
geofft wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wonder how much of this is an outgrowth of the current university campus climate where opinions that don't fit into the predominant liberal worldview can't be voiced. This does not seem to match the reality at university campuses - only the caricature by people who find it politically expedient to be seen as persecuted.

Results of this debate disagree with you https://www.intelligencesquaredus.org/debates/free-speech-th...

The results of a straw poll after a debate are not evidence for anything beyond what the people who saw the debate thought of the debaters. People vote for all kinds of reasons - the underlying merits of the case, the impressiveness of the speakers that they've found to present it, even sympathy for someone who got obviously crushed by their opponent. When I was a debater I've seen some truly outrageous motions get passed simply because one side was funnier.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#97

Post by sebleon »

Cyberdog wrote: post #79
sebleon wrote: post #48

As someone with many “heretic ideas”, I disagree with this article - people that execute on crazy ideas are thick-skinned. Hard to believe that smart people would actually leave SF because of PC culture (although it is annoying). Even from Altman’s examples, Newton stayed in England and did what he wanted, despite the social norms. It was also odd to see Altman use China as the bastion of freedom, a place with widesp…

I hardly see him presenting China as a bastion of freedom. But I do understand how one could feel safer voicing their mind on a certain subset of topics among a crowd of Beijingren versus a crowd of San Franciscans.

Ah that’s fair, different cultures will have different heresies.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#98

Post by librvf »

ak_yo wrote: post #57
youdontknowtho wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I keep hearing that from people saying things like... "I think black people are genetically inferior." ...followed by... "Why can't we have a free exchange of ideas?" What if the ideas are unethical? There is a lot of that going around these days. Life extension is one that comes up quite a bit, because the question doesn't seem to involve life extension for all, but life extension for a few who can afford it. Or, if…

I completely agree. The exchange seems to go like this: A: "I think black people are genetically inferior." B: "I think that's a bigoted thing to say that has historically caused a lot of harm to a lot of people." A: "Why can't we have a free exchange of ideas?" Person B is engaging with that idea, it's just that they think it's completely indefensible. I have a hard time understanding how Person A thinks this conver…

You might agree, but you're both completely wrong. As James Damore proved, the exchange goes like this:

    A:  Statistically speaking, there are some genetic explanations for trends we see between men and women.
    B:  That is a sexist thing to say that women can't do tech, so you are harming women in tech.  You need to be fired.
    A:  But... that's not what I said...
(A is fired)

    B:  SO COURAGEOUS of the company to fire that employee for those bigoted ideas
    C:  Why can't we have a free exchange of ideas?
    D:  Every time someone says something bigoted, they're like "muh free speech!"  Stop saying bigoted things!
Note: D never read the original post and has no first-hand knowledge of what A may or may not be guilty of.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#99

Post by staunch »

ealexhudson wrote: post #6

I think this is a radical simplification of what is a complex problem. Genetic engineering as a whole is known to be an area strewn with moral hazards, and not least harks back to some of the darkest days of 20th century science. Having an ethical outlook isn't a form of heresy, it's a form of societal safety. We need to accept that some of these ideas (probably not all - it's always difficult to get on the right sid…

The idea that "ideas can be dangerous" is a dangerous idea.

Re: E Pur Si Muove

#100

Post by eanzenberg »

conanbatt wrote: post #75

I remember being in argentina a couple of years back and seeing the "Political correctness" pro-trump slogan and thinking how dumb that sounded. Moved back to SF, and there is a HUGE difference of what it was for me 5 years ago. The people I know are way more cautious and the people I don't are even more afraid. The Damore essay is still one of the unspeakables. I know I fear getting fired if i publicly said i agreed…

Those people probably have more to lose now if they spoke freely of ideas that were antithetical to their surroundings.
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