Crytek sues Star Citizen devs for copyright infringement, breach of contract • Hacker News Board

Re: Crytek sues Star Citizen devs for copyright infringement, breach of contract

#11

Post by danielvf » Thu, Dec 14, 2017, 4:19 AM UTC

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #9

danielvf wrote: post #8

This suit seems a bit weak in places. For example they are sueing that they only licensed cryengine for one game, and yet RSI was planning on using it for two games. However the second game has never shipped, and RSI has switched both games over to the Amazon Lumberyard engine. This particular claim seems like it’s going to get thrown out. My guess is that we’ll see a settlement in this. It doesn’t seem like this goi…

There's a reasonable point that from the time they started developing Squadron 42 to the time that they switched to Lumberyard, they were illegally using the engine. Additionally, it's been suggested that the "engine switch" was in name only/an attempt at evading the license fee. If in discovery, they can prove CryEngine is still in use, as opposed to actually being properly rebased on Lumberyard... There's a lot her…

If they weren’t using Lumberyard, that would be more exciting, but CryTech claims RSI is, and some of their other claims are based on RSI having switched. They can’t have it both ways.

Re: Crytek sues Star Citizen devs for copyright infringement, breach of contract

#12

Post by lyrrad » Thu, Dec 14, 2017, 4:28 AM UTC

synicalx wrote: post #3

tl;dr if you can't be bothered reading through all the legal fidgey widgey - Crytek is claiming CIG breached their contract by doing the following: - Publishing Squadron 42 as a seperate game (licence was only for one game, Star Citizen) - CIG fiddled with/remove Crytek's branding in loading screens etc (they weren't supposed to) - Cryengine was not exclusively used for Star Citizen (apparently it also leverages Lumb…

I assume the 'in excess of $75,000' figure is in there to ensure that a Federal court has jurisdiction over the action.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amount_in_controversy

Re: Crytek sues Star Citizen devs for copyright infringement, breach of contract

#13

Post by synicalx » Thu, Dec 14, 2017, 4:31 AM UTC

lyrrad wrote: post #12

synicalx wrote: post #3

tl;dr if you can't be bothered reading through all the legal fidgey widgey - Crytek is claiming CIG breached their contract by doing the following: - Publishing Squadron 42 as a seperate game (licence was only for one game, Star Citizen) - CIG fiddled with/remove Crytek's branding in loading screens etc (they weren't supposed to) - Cryengine was not exclusively used for Star Citizen (apparently it also leverages Lumb…

I assume the 'in excess of $75,000' figure is in there to ensure that a Federal court has jurisdiction over the action. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amount_in_controversy

Ah that would make sense! Theoretically then, I suppose this could actually be quite a big chunk of cash in question - especially with all the allusions to how much money CIG raised for Star Citizen.

Re: Crytek sues Star Citizen devs for copyright infringement, breach of contract

#14

Post by dsl » Thu, Dec 14, 2017, 4:40 AM UTC

danielvf wrote: post #11

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a reasonable point that from the time they started developing Squadron 42 to the time that they switched to Lumberyard, they were illegally using the engine. Additionally, it's been suggested that the "engine switch" was in name only/an attempt at evading the license fee. If in discovery, they can prove CryEngine is still in use, as opposed to actually being properly rebased on Lumberyard... There's a lot her…

If they weren’t using Lumberyard, that would be more exciting, but CryTech claims RSI is, and some of their other claims are based on RSI having switched. They can’t have it both ways.

Sure they can. They moved the bulk of the engine over to Lumberyard and publicly announced that, but under the hood are probably using the more mature CryEngine where Lumberyard is lacking.

EDIT: It gets more confusing, Lumberyard is apparently a hard fork of CryEngine that Amazon paid for. My guess is they switched to Lumberyard for better licensing terms, but kept all the enhancements made to CryEngine post-fork.

Re: Crytek sues Star Citizen devs for copyright infringement, breach of contract

#15

Post by m_mueller » Thu, Dec 14, 2017, 5:03 AM UTC

throwaway13337 wrote: post #6

synicalx wrote: post #3

tl;dr if you can't be bothered reading through all the legal fidgey widgey - Crytek is claiming CIG breached their contract by doing the following: - Publishing Squadron 42 as a seperate game (licence was only for one game, Star Citizen) - CIG fiddled with/remove Crytek's branding in loading screens etc (they weren't supposed to) - Cryengine was not exclusively used for Star Citizen (apparently it also leverages Lumb…

Interesting to note that Lumberyard is a licensed Cryengine fork.

Given that CIG has relicensed under Lumberyard, is it possible that Crytek has a case here? I guess it depends on the contract, but I can't really imagine that CGI locked themselves into a contract to only ever use CryEngine for Star Citizen - wouldn't there have to be a specific clause that gives the dollar amount due in such a case that Star Citizen is either cancelled or switched to a different engine?

Re: Crytek sues Star Citizen devs for copyright infringement, breach of contract

#16

Post by drawkbox » Thu, Dec 14, 2017, 5:17 AM UTC

Lumberyard is a fork by Amazon of CryEngine that they licensed in 2015 that Star Citizen switched to. If developers start with that engine they are ok but looks like there were deals with Crytek on games/content before that date.

Legal challenges from a game engine is something that can scare away new projects in that engine. This wouldn't affect most developers as Star Citizen signed with CryEngine but it won't be attracting people to use CryEngine over others anytime soon.

Crytek is one of those companies that has great game engine tech but got high-centered when Unreal and Unity went free in 2015. Crytek is from the age of game development where licensing per game could run up above 300k for licenses and/or percentages that were much higher than today (Today Unreal is free but 5% royalties of gross over 3k quarterly -- but previously was 300k for the license -- Unity free up to 100k revs and $35/$125 Pro with no royalties, previously it was $1500 a year minimum). Crytek has been in a reactionary mode since 2015 when they also had to significantly change their model due to Unity/Unreal competitive moves.

Unreal at 5% royalties over 3k a quarter, Unity at free to 100k annually and $35/$125 Pro after that and even Crytek at $50/mo, all are very helpful for game development skills. Previously when engines were hundreds of thousands for a license it was hard to even gain skills beyond modding tools for engines and game companies had to shoulder all the training costs of even good game devs. Today, Unity/Unreal skills are much easier to find because of the low cost of entry. Ultimately the change to subscriptions and low cost (relatively) of the licenses allows a good market for developers investing in skills that will immediately translate at the game company they are working at, much easier to hit the ground running. Ultimately access to the engines is more valuable than the up-front costs of the past. Crytek is still dealing with that competitive pressure most likely.

Re: Crytek sues Star Citizen devs for copyright infringement, breach of contract

#17

Post by didibus » Thu, Dec 14, 2017, 5:57 AM UTC

dsl wrote: post #14

danielvf wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they weren’t using Lumberyard, that would be more exciting, but CryTech claims RSI is, and some of their other claims are based on RSI having switched. They can’t have it both ways.

Sure they can. They moved the bulk of the engine over to Lumberyard and publicly announced that, but under the hood are probably using the more mature CryEngine where Lumberyard is lacking. EDIT: It gets more confusing, Lumberyard is apparently a hard fork of CryEngine that Amazon paid for. My guess is they switched to Lumberyard for better licensing terms, but kept all the enhancements made to CryEngine post-fork.

Amazon also made enhancements to Lumberyard since though. Not sure why you'd call one more mature then the other. Do you have experience with both and can attest that Lumberyard now lacks behind the latest CryEngine?

Re: Crytek sues Star Citizen devs for copyright infringement, breach of contract

#18

Post by tedivm » Thu, Dec 14, 2017, 5:59 AM UTC

m_mueller wrote: post #15

throwaway13337 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting to note that Lumberyard is a licensed Cryengine fork.

Given that CIG has relicensed under Lumberyard, is it possible that Crytek has a case here? I guess it depends on the contract, but I can't really imagine that CGI locked themselves into a contract to only ever use CryEngine for Star Citizen - wouldn't there have to be a specific clause that gives the dollar amount due in such a case that Star Citizen is either cancelled or switched to a different engine?

This wasn't a simple "we used this engine" type of deal- Crytek invested a lot in the kickstarter by supplying expertise and helping to build demos, and in return for that they promised to use the engine. This was meant to help promote Crytek as well, and that is why they invested in it.

Specifically-

> In that Agreement, Defendants promised, among other things, (i) to use the CryEngine game development platform exclusively and to promote that platform within the video game, (ii) to collaborate with Crytek on CryEngine development, and (iii) to take a number of steps to ensure that Crytek's intellectual property was protected.

Re: Crytek sues Star Citizen devs for copyright infringement, breach of contract

#19

Post by leereeves » Thu, Dec 14, 2017, 6:01 AM UTC

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #10

This is the first time I've seen something amid all the wolf-crying about CIG and Star Citizen that could actually kill it. Crytek has a lot of claims, very likely reasonable merit for them, and more importantly: Crytek is desperate and needs the money. They have no reason to settle or back down. As a "concierge-level" backer (I'm embarrassed about it too, don't worry), I have a lot of concerns Crytek may end up with…

If they're desperate and need the money, they have a strong motive to settle instead of fighting a long lawsuit they might lose or wait through years of appeals and stalling tactics.

Re: Crytek sues Star Citizen devs for copyright infringement, breach of contract

#20

Post by 59nadir » Thu, Dec 14, 2017, 6:27 AM UTC

Crytek is a useless company that's been looking to make a quick buck by any means possible since they stopped making games for real. You only have to look at their recent development with 'Crycash' for yet another example.

This is just another attempt at keeping cash flow positive, not by making games but by any other means possible. I wouldn't be surprised to see news in a few months or half a year saying Crytek are yet again not paying their employees.