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Accident Forgiveness Comes to GPLv2

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Re: Accident Forgiveness Comes to GPLv2

#2
Ok, I understand that this is trying to be decent and reasonable people here, in cases where it's truly an accident of including some GPL code. Shit happens, clean it up.

If I were to do this with commercial code or assets, would they be so flexible in working with me, or do they go straight to shakedown? I'll give ye all a hint: go look at the MPAA and RIAA's views on that.

I remembered when friends were back in the Napster times shook down for a few grand. Same with Bittorrent's earlier years. There was no amicable "Plz quit this and were good". In fact, they've lobbied multiple times for laws to permanently disconnect after X copyright claims.

So, why should the Open Source community be so damned forgiving when we're surrounded by entities who'd eat every last one of us for lunch if we so much as accidentally used a copyrighted resource?

(I'm thinking no further than Netflix ripping off a photographer https://petapixel.com/2017/11/27/netflix-stole-vhs-cassette-... . Good luck for an Australian citizen to navigate international copyright law to become whole in this regard. )

Re: Accident Forgiveness Comes to GPLv2

#3

Ok, I understand that this is trying to be decent and reasonable people here, in cases where it's truly an accident of including some GPL code. Shit happens, clean it up. If I were to do this with commercial code or assets, would they be so flexible in working with me, or do they go straight to shakedown? I'll give ye all a hint: go look at the MPAA and RIAA's views on that. I remembered when friends were back in the…

I agree. This is a slide down a bad slope as people will now expect a hand slap the first time (at least).

Re: Accident Forgiveness Comes to GPLv2

#4

Ok, I understand that this is trying to be decent and reasonable people here, in cases where it's truly an accident of including some GPL code. Shit happens, clean it up. If I were to do this with commercial code or assets, would they be so flexible in working with me, or do they go straight to shakedown? I'll give ye all a hint: go look at the MPAA and RIAA's views on that. I remembered when friends were back in the…

> So, why should the Open Source community be so damned forgiving

Because the point of free software isn't to shake down anyone. Because we're better than that. We want to make sure software stays free, and punishing people doesn't often help. Almost all copyleft enforcement is done without judges and courts, and that's how it should be. We want more friends, not less.

This is not to mean we're pushovers. It just means we enforce free software as gently as possible. Once the software is free, there is no more conflict to resolve.

Re: Accident Forgiveness Comes to GPLv2

#5

Ok, I understand that this is trying to be decent and reasonable people here, in cases where it's truly an accident of including some GPL code. Shit happens, clean it up. If I were to do this with commercial code or assets, would they be so flexible in working with me, or do they go straight to shakedown? I'll give ye all a hint: go look at the MPAA and RIAA's views on that. I remembered when friends were back in the…

One strategic reason is that it removes a disincentive to use GPL'd software. If I believe that screwing up an image build once is enough to permanently revoke my entire company's license to use Linux, the strategic thing to do is to not use Linux for anything.

(I think people can legitimately disagree as to whether this disincentive is a thing people actually take into account)

Re: Accident Forgiveness Comes to GPLv2

#6
post #3

Ok, I understand that this is trying to be decent and reasonable people here, in cases where it's truly an accident of including some GPL code. Shit happens, clean it up. If I were to do this with commercial code or assets, would they be so flexible in working with me, or do they go straight to shakedown? I'll give ye all a hint: go look at the MPAA and RIAA's views on that. I remembered when friends were back in the…

I agree. This is a slide down a bad slope as people will now expect a hand slap the first time (at least).

I really think it matters in what context.

If someone was hacking on a BSD based license, and included code they mistakenly mis-identified the license, I get that. It was an accident. Mention it to them as an issue or email. It's an oversight, accidents do indeed happen.

It reminds me of the recent issue where nVidia copied some dev's code from their GH repo. The repo was unlicensed, but whomever did the copying included it as BSD license. After the dev contacted the repo owner, they fixed it (to my understanding).

These cases are accidents and oversights. And the key here is they're corrected quickly after being brought attention to.

Then you have the other class: habitual intentional infringers. Theyd lift all of Linux, and do. You like those illegal binary dumps with closed source in a release of Linux kernel? Or how about found in countless firmwares on consumer devices? Yeah, its all there, closed source badness and all. And the law allows up to $135k per violation. Ok, times 1 million devices sold. Please pay 135 billion USD.

Re: Accident Forgiveness Comes to GPLv2

#7

Ok, I understand that this is trying to be decent and reasonable people here, in cases where it's truly an accident of including some GPL code. Shit happens, clean it up. If I were to do this with commercial code or assets, would they be so flexible in working with me, or do they go straight to shakedown? I'll give ye all a hint: go look at the MPAA and RIAA's views on that. I remembered when friends were back in the…

> So, why should the Open Source community be so damned forgiving when we're surrounded by entities who'd eat every last one of us for lunch if we so much as accidentally used a copyrighted resource?

For a few reasons.

0. Because not only profitable large companies accidentally infringe on copyright (or copyleft). If for example OpenZFS somehow violated the GPL with the CDDL, you don't want someone using that to extort money from another free software project.

1. Because people using the GPL to extort money has already happened and it makes the GPL seem toxic. I love the GPL (GPLv2 or later), but it took me quite a bit of legwork to get it approved for use at my dayjob. The objections are based on FUD, and moves like this remove some of the FUD.

2. GPLv3 already has this clause. The FSF et al understood that it was good for the community AND good for the GPL. Extending this to GPLv2 brings the same good faith to projects that can't or won't re-license.

I understand the desire to be as punitive as the bad guys, but the FOSS community is too small to get away with tactics like that. Besides, you shouldn't even if you could. Free Software is fundamentally about community, and attacking people is anti-community.

Re: Accident Forgiveness Comes to GPLv2

#8

Ok, I understand that this is trying to be decent and reasonable people here, in cases where it's truly an accident of including some GPL code. Shit happens, clean it up. If I were to do this with commercial code or assets, would they be so flexible in working with me, or do they go straight to shakedown? I'll give ye all a hint: go look at the MPAA and RIAA's views on that. I remembered when friends were back in the…

(I'm thinking no further than Netflix ripping off a photographer https://petapixel.com/2017/11/27/netflix-stole-vhs-cassette-.... . Good luck for an Australian citizen to navigate international copyright law to become whole in this regard. )

In all fairness to Netflix it took longer than it should have (for which they apologized) but they ended up compensating the guy to his satisfaction. Now perhaps that's just because of how publicly he stated his case but in the end Netflix did do the right thing.

Edit: As for the rest of your post, you make a good point!

Re: Accident Forgiveness Comes to GPLv2

#9
post #5

Ok, I understand that this is trying to be decent and reasonable people here, in cases where it's truly an accident of including some GPL code. Shit happens, clean it up. If I were to do this with commercial code or assets, would they be so flexible in working with me, or do they go straight to shakedown? I'll give ye all a hint: go look at the MPAA and RIAA's views on that. I remembered when friends were back in the…

One strategic reason is that it removes a disincentive to use GPL'd software. If I believe that screwing up an image build once is enough to permanently revoke my entire company's license to use Linux, the strategic thing to do is to not use Linux for anything . (I think people can legitimately disagree as to whether this disincentive is a thing people actually take into account)

I get where you're going with that line of argument.

But lets take the counterpoint. How many times has Legal been introduced to go over Microsoft Windows contract/EULA? How about each other piece of software in your installation?

Are you guaranteed any sort of amnesty or accident forgiveness with the BSA if they catch "incorrectly licensed software" on your network? Is the company guaranteed any sort of "fitness" if the software creators decide to remotely turn off their software?

The GPL is cleanly written. And even to a non-legal person like me, seems pretty straight forward. The Apple/Microsoft/Google/Amazon/Oracle contracts and EULAs are most certainly not.

Re: Accident Forgiveness Comes to GPLv2

#10

Ok, I understand that this is trying to be decent and reasonable people here, in cases where it's truly an accident of including some GPL code. Shit happens, clean it up. If I were to do this with commercial code or assets, would they be so flexible in working with me, or do they go straight to shakedown? I'll give ye all a hint: go look at the MPAA and RIAA's views on that. I remembered when friends were back in the…

Why do we open source software in the first place?

For most of us, I think it's because we want people to use it. And, yes, we want people to use it under certain conditions, it's not a free-for-all, but using it is an important part. If it wasn't, we'd just keep it closed.

Going straight to harsh enforcement for a violation isn't going to help with that. There are already a lot of people unwilling to consider open source for anything because they misunderstand it and think that they'll automatically open source all of their own stuff if they do. Imagine if open source copyright owners had a reputation for going immediately for a lawsuit and statutory damages upon discovering a violation!

Figure out what your goal is, then do whatever helps accomplish that goal. The behavior of organizations like the MPAA and RIAA probably doesn't enter into it.

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