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No need to pinkify – Girls get interested in tech because it is interesting

code.likeagirl.io

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Re: No need to pinkify – Girls get interested in tech because it is interesting

#71

Post by brlewis »

didibus wrote: post #9

This makes me wonder, have computers inherently been designed as boy toys? I don't support continuing the teaching that girls should like pink things, dresses and flowers, but it does exist quite strongly. So if we assume boys are thought or predisposed to like esthetic X, while girls are thought or predisposed to like esthetic Y. Have computers been designed to esthetic X? Basically, my point is, are computers gende…

This calls for a full-blown essay at some point, but for now I'll just throw this comment out there.

[Using the terms girl and boy to continue the language of the parent comment; not meaning to be diminutive to anybody.]

Computers are inherently designed as girl toys, and boys are the foreigners in this world.

With the caveat that any statement you make about half the population is going to be wrong about a lot of people, statistically, girls are more risk-averse than boys.

Most of the advancement I've seen in programming over the past few decades has been for the purpose of reducing risk. Universal code reviews, automated tests, TDD, stronger type systems, distributed version control are prime examples off the top of my head.

Certainly there's a place in programming for more than one cognitive style, but it's the risk-averse style that puts the infrastructure in place such that the risk-taking style can create things that aren't a total disaster. So I'd summarize programming as a diverse world with a girlified core.

Re: No need to pinkify – Girls get interested in tech because it is interesting

#72

Post by watwut »

waisbrot wrote: post #41
jorjordandan wrote: post #21

My daughter is six. I never wanted her to be interested in things that were traditionally gendered - but she just is. I would buy neutral toys, but her eyes would light up when she saw the babies and pink princesses. So, is she wrong to like those things? We have done the minecraft hour of code together, (she likes minecraft too) but if there was an even more 'girly' version I an guarantee that she would be more enga…

She's not wrong, but to say "she just is [interested in things that are traditionally gendered]" seems a little incurious. Princesses, pink ponies, and frilly dresses did not exist when modern humans came into being. So liking or disliking those things is almost entirely a matter of socialization and not some kind of biotruth. While you may have tried to socialize her away from "girly" stuff, peers are often a strong…

I would really like to know why this was dovnvoted. Horses used to be boy toys when men worked with horses and now are exclusively girl toys.

Re: No need to pinkify – Girls get interested in tech because it is interesting

#73

Post by cirgue »

Danihan wrote: post #8

"YOU NEED TO TRY HARDER TO APPEAL TO MINORITY GROUPS." - 2 seconds later - "STOP USING STEREOTYPES TO APPEAL TO MINORITY GROUPS, IT'S OFFENSIVE." I mean, I understand the sentiment, but I can also see why many industry professionals begin to think this sort of thing is a catch-22 where smug criticisms will be levied, regardless of conscientiousness.

> catch-22 where smug criticisms will be levied, regardless of conscientiousness.

This is 90% of online discourse: most people have absolutely nothing to contribute except smug criticism. Trying to satisfy popular opinion online optimizes for mediocrity, cynicism, and least-common-denominator thinking.

If your pinkwashed bootcamp/outreach program/hackathon is getting people engaged who would not otherwise be engaged, then you're doing the right thing. Same for programs that prioritize technology over identity. There's a big audience for both. If people don't like that a group or event is not catering to their very specific idea of what inclusive environments should look like, then they're always free to go somewhere else or do their own thing.

Re: No need to pinkify – Girls get interested in tech because it is interesting

#74

Post by ucaetano »

1_2__4 wrote: post #62
stinkytaco wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm genuinely curious here: how? Isn't appealing to minority groups by definition setting them apart from other groups? If we're not going to genericize all appeals (thus introducing the built in cultural bias of appealing to most people, i.e. the dominant group) don't we have to say "this thing that is unique to your cultural group is why you should be interested"? That sounds like it almost must include some stereo…

It's almost as if the game is built specifically to be unwinnable. What an odd coincidence.

This isn't a game, and it isn't about winning. The fact that you see it that way is "what an odd coincidence".

Re: No need to pinkify – Girls get interested in tech because it is interesting

#75

Post by dang »

Danihan wrote: post #8

"YOU NEED TO TRY HARDER TO APPEAL TO MINORITY GROUPS." - 2 seconds later - "STOP USING STEREOTYPES TO APPEAL TO MINORITY GROUPS, IT'S OFFENSIVE." I mean, I understand the sentiment, but I can also see why many industry professionals begin to think this sort of thing is a catch-22 where smug criticisms will be levied, regardless of conscientiousness.

Using uppercase for emphasis is against the HN guidelines. Please don't do that; it's like yelling.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: No need to pinkify – Girls get interested in tech because it is interesting

#76

Post by EncipheredBy »

twobyfour wrote: post #27
curun1r wrote: post #19

Pinkifying to appeal to women...sure, it's probably patronizing and wrong-headed. Pinkifying to appeal to young girls...absolutely need more of this. Almost every engineer I've ever spoken to on the topic had Legos or some other toy that involves combining building blocks of some sort into a larger whole when they were a child. We absolutely need to pinkify these toys to build engineering instincts in young girls if…

You might be surprised to learn that girls aren't attracted only to toys that are pink and flowery or related to traditionally feminine pursuits. I find that assumption damaging. As a girl, my favorite toys were legos, blocks, and the toy cars that sadly were more often gifts to my brother than to me or to us both. Ideally all three together (racing cars down the hallway on ramps built from blocks and lego? Win!) Non…

I also was pretty gender-agnostic in my choice of toys as a child, and get annoyed at parents who I assumed pushed "girly" stuff on their kids.

But then I got to know parents who were trying to actively discourage their kids from like princess garbage, but they couldn't stop it because the kids learn from their friends. I'm no child psychologist, but there's probably some age where what their peer group thinks is more important to them than what their parents have introduced at home.

I don't know how to avoid that when having kids myself besides being careful that I'm not plopping them into a school full of girls who are being told which things they should and shouldn't want to play with.

Re: No need to pinkify – Girls get interested in tech because it is interesting

#77

Post by watwut »

randomdata wrote: post #46
lucozade wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> girls that like coding aren't usually very interested in girly stuff You might have a causality problem here. For example, my daughter, who is definitely at the girly girl end of the spectrum sees no problem with being a lawyer or a medical doctor. That probably wouldn't have been the case a generation or so ago (at least here in the UK). > All of this is just demeaning the profession As the father of said girl, an…

What did the medicine and legal industries do to "pinkify" themselves in the last generation?

Girls aisle in toystore is full of pink doctor tools. Our bookstore has "occupations for girls" book and there is doctor and female doctor is regular occurence in kids books/shows. That is how it was during my childhood too.

Where I thought I would be weird for choosing electrotechnics as a profession (and such occupations were only in "for boys" books), I never thought the same about being doctor.

Re: No need to pinkify – Girls get interested in tech because it is interesting

#78

Post by wccrawford »

bdamm wrote: post #36
didibus wrote: post #9

This makes me wonder, have computers inherently been designed as boy toys? I don't support continuing the teaching that girls should like pink things, dresses and flowers, but it does exist quite strongly. So if we assume boys are thought or predisposed to like esthetic X, while girls are thought or predisposed to like esthetic Y. Have computers been designed to esthetic X? Basically, my point is, are computers gende…

It's telling that there isn't even a term for this. You've hit a major point here.

Until a few minutes ago, I'd never heard of "pinkifying", either. Here, I'll make one up that will be instantly recognizable: Masculinizing.

Re: No need to pinkify – Girls get interested in tech because it is interesting

#79

Post by hungerstrike »

This site is a hypocrite then because less than a third or even a quarter of the articles are about technical subjects. Most of their articles are about social justice.

This is typical for just about every "we need more women in X" campaign that I've seen.

Re: No need to pinkify – Girls get interested in tech because it is interesting

#80

Post by ThrustVectoring »

ucaetano wrote: post #15
Danihan wrote: post #8

"YOU NEED TO TRY HARDER TO APPEAL TO MINORITY GROUPS." - 2 seconds later - "STOP USING STEREOTYPES TO APPEAL TO MINORITY GROUPS, IT'S OFFENSIVE." I mean, I understand the sentiment, but I can also see why many industry professionals begin to think this sort of thing is a catch-22 where smug criticisms will be levied, regardless of conscientiousness.

"YOU NEED TO TRY HARDER TO APPEAL TO MINORITY GROUPS by not stereotyping, patronizing, abusing them and creating a hostile environment " There, I fixed it for you. You can appeal to minority groups without using stereotypes.

Merely not driving away minority groups isn't enough to fix the imbalances in representation. People don't avoid things because of future negative experiences, they avoid things because they expect to get negative experiences there. Like, if police magically started treating African Americans like they ought to overnight, there's a lot of built-up fear that would still have the African American community avoid interactions with police.

It's not just a behavior problem, but also a marketing problem. You can't fix a marketing problem without, you know, marketing.

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