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No need to pinkify – Girls get interested in tech because it is interesting

code.likeagirl.io

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Re: No need to pinkify – Girls get interested in tech because it is interesting

#61

Post by twobyfour »

randomdata wrote: post #46
lucozade wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> girls that like coding aren't usually very interested in girly stuff You might have a causality problem here. For example, my daughter, who is definitely at the girly girl end of the spectrum sees no problem with being a lawyer or a medical doctor. That probably wouldn't have been the case a generation or so ago (at least here in the UK). > All of this is just demeaning the profession As the father of said girl, an…

What did the medicine and legal industries do to "pinkify" themselves in the last generation?

Nothing except to start accepting women as equally capable as men and equally likely to have an interest in the profession.

Re: No need to pinkify – Girls get interested in tech because it is interesting

#62

Post by 1_2__4 »

stinkytaco wrote: post #40
ucaetano wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"YOU NEED TO TRY HARDER TO APPEAL TO MINORITY GROUPS by not stereotyping, patronizing, abusing them and creating a hostile environment " There, I fixed it for you. You can appeal to minority groups without using stereotypes.

I'm genuinely curious here: how? Isn't appealing to minority groups by definition setting them apart from other groups? If we're not going to genericize all appeals (thus introducing the built in cultural bias of appealing to most people, i.e. the dominant group) don't we have to say "this thing that is unique to your cultural group is why you should be interested"? That sounds like it almost must include some stereo…

It's almost as if the game is built specifically to be unwinnable. What an odd coincidence.

Re: No need to pinkify – Girls get interested in tech because it is interesting

#64

Post by watwut »

jorjordandan wrote: post #21

My daughter is six. I never wanted her to be interested in things that were traditionally gendered - but she just is. I would buy neutral toys, but her eyes would light up when she saw the babies and pink princesses. So, is she wrong to like those things? We have done the minecraft hour of code together, (she likes minecraft too) but if there was an even more 'girly' version I an guarantee that she would be more enga…

I used to be against "pinkification", I am not against it after having children.

My kids knew what is "for girls" and "for boys" from around two and half - but I did not taught them that. They would actively ask in toys store what is for girls and what is for boys and then wanted only toys "for them". I lied a couple of times to test it and they stopped asking when they figured symbols. Also I have seen kids correct and sometimes mock each other about what is gender proper for who. They willing to have fun with "wrong toys" now, but I had to explain couple of times that it is ok. And also that they should not mock other kids for that.

It does not matter what of it is biological and what not. What matters is that when you paint car or box to pink, it becomes "for girls" for many kids and adults. It makes it not shameful to play with it and it makes them think it is something with potential for them.

I don't like pink, but it is symbol for "for girls" for many people. It is also pretty much any color that is not used used for pretty much anything smart. The association between pink and stupid is partly because that is how I remember it being used whole time while growing up.

The distaste of pinkification is partly because coloring something to pink makes third parties assume it is stupid, but we dont want tech to look stupid. I get that too, but it would be better to break association then ban color.

Re: No need to pinkify – Girls get interested in tech because it is interesting

#65

Post by EncipheredBy »

So, one thing that this article ignores is that kids pick up really strongly on what is expected of their gender. I think the "let's make programming more pink" thing is silly, BUT hey, isn't that what toy manufacturers and clothing manufacturers all do to signal "hey girls, this is for you!"?

So if you slap a bunch of pink stuff on things, yeah, you're kind of making an invitation to them to join in.

BUT I think that the "girl" version of things is also always assumed to be the "easy" version of things. Which girls pick up on too.

As a woman trying to get into tech, I'm super uninterested in woman-only bootcamp type things, since I feel like the perception will be that I "couldn't make it" in the "regular" bootcamp.

I do think it might be different for little kids though, as they might be operating more on the "I want to do what's expected of my gender" level than a grown up who is able to think "I don't care what's expected of my gender."

Re: No need to pinkify – Girls get interested in tech because it is interesting

#66

Post by twobyfour »

tzahola wrote: post #32
LeoJiWoo wrote: post #2

I don't see the problem in pinking stuff. If that's the social cue to make tech okay for a large majority of girls, what's the harm. Most people seem to want to be male or female. The more options the better, I think. We need to increase the amount of women in tech.

>We need to increase the amount of women in tech. How about truck drivers? Do we need to increase the amount of women there too?

To the degree that it's an opening to economic opportunity, then yes, why not?

FWIW, truck driving (at least long-haul) is a little different from programming in one important regard: it takes the driver away from their families for days at a time. This is typically more problematic for women than for men, since women are still more likely to be responsible for care of home and family, whether they want to or not. (IMO that's another issue our society needs to address w.r.t. gender equality, but it's a bit tangential to the current topic of discussion.)

By contrast, programming jobs are no more gender-loaded in terms of the lifestyle involved than law jobs are. There's no reason for women to self-select out of them aside from being told that programming isn't for them or being made to feel unwanted.

Re: No need to pinkify – Girls get interested in tech because it is interesting

#67

Post by ucaetano »

stinkytaco wrote: post #40
ucaetano wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"YOU NEED TO TRY HARDER TO APPEAL TO MINORITY GROUPS by not stereotyping, patronizing, abusing them and creating a hostile environment " There, I fixed it for you. You can appeal to minority groups without using stereotypes.

I'm genuinely curious here: how? Isn't appealing to minority groups by definition setting them apart from other groups? If we're not going to genericize all appeals (thus introducing the built in cultural bias of appealing to most people, i.e. the dominant group) don't we have to say "this thing that is unique to your cultural group is why you should be interested"? That sounds like it almost must include some stereo…

"Isn't appealing to minority groups by definition setting them apart from other groups?"

No, in a world where minority groups are set apart, appealing to them can be as simple as not setting them apart, by no harassing, abusing, discriminating, etc.

You don't need pink office chairs to make an office space welcoming for women. You just need NOT to have catcalls, rapists, abusers, sexist jokes, etc.

Simple stuff, really.

Re: No need to pinkify – Girls get interested in tech because it is interesting

#68

Post by jandrese »

didibus wrote: post #9

This makes me wonder, have computers inherently been designed as boy toys? I don't support continuing the teaching that girls should like pink things, dresses and flowers, but it does exist quite strongly. So if we assume boys are thought or predisposed to like esthetic X, while girls are thought or predisposed to like esthetic Y. Have computers been designed to esthetic X? Basically, my point is, are computers gende…

Part of it is that the computer field grew out of the radio and electronics clubs which were overwhelmingly male.

Even if they were trying their best to be inclusive and open it's really hard to walk into a room for the first time and see that you're the only X in there and want to stick around. You will feel like an outsider for a long time even if you do stick around most likely. Worse, these feelings can amplify any perceived rejection from the community you feel.

Ironically to stick around you have to have a bit of an asshole streak because in the monkey part of your brain you know you don't belong and you have to ignore that and plow forward regardless of what you perceive the others in the group are thinking. This is an area where women are at a disadvantage as they tend to be more empathetic overall.

Re: No need to pinkify – Girls get interested in tech because it is interesting

#69

Post by 20years »

stinkytaco wrote: post #57
20years wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agree with you here. I think middle school is actually the prime age to start teaching it but not the drag/drop scratch/block type stuff you see in the lower grades. It should be a requirement just like Math and English.

Is there something wrong with the drag and drop approach? I find that working with kids on programming lego robots through their drag and drop approach is fairly engaging to them and does communicate concepts pretty well (loops, arrays, variables and so on). Of course you need to move them to a more "grown up" syntax eventually, but I suspect that comes as they need to solve more complex programs.

I think the drag/drop tools are great for the younger kids but once they reach middle school age they are generally ready for something more.

I periodically teach middle school coding workshops. One of the top questions the kids ask at the start of a new workshop is will they be using scratch or hand coding. They associate scratch with the young kids and want more control by this age.

Re: No need to pinkify – Girls get interested in tech because it is interesting

#70

Post by ucaetano »

jandrese wrote: post #50
ucaetano wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"YOU NEED TO TRY HARDER TO APPEAL TO MINORITY GROUPS by not stereotyping, patronizing, abusing them and creating a hostile environment " There, I fixed it for you. You can appeal to minority groups without using stereotypes.

But how? I'm being serious here. You put anything culturally appropriate into the system and someone is going to call it an offensive stereotype. So you have to make it relevant to the user while not referencing anything specific about them, not an easy problem to solve.

Easy: get rid of the blocking factors.

As I just mentioned in another post: You don't need pink office chairs to make an environment welcoming for women. You just need not to have catcalls, rapists, abusers, sexist jokes, etc.

[Edit] And for a bonus round: don't focus on culture. If you're interviewing someone for a SWE job, don't ask if they played videogames when they were kids. There is a good chance that they were too poor to afford them, or they never got it as a gift because they were females and people didn't think females would play videogames.

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