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Google to open artificial intelligence centre in China

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Re: Google to open artificial intelligence centre in China

#31

Post by darepublic »

paradite wrote: post #26
adventured wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact is Communist China has a very deep history of "cleansing" what they define as undesirables, which continues today in various forms. Today (and for decades now) they're aggressively attempting to "cleanse" homosexuals using state resources, torturing thousands of people. [1][2] China's Communist system also "cleansed" a vast number of people throughout its recent history. Over two decades they murdered (or se…

So assuming what you described is true, why hasn't the rest of the world declared war against the communist China? Because it's not close to what Nazis did. And that's my point. Btw, from the articles that you linked, it is quite clear that treating LGBT as disease is not a government policy. In fact, it is against the law. The government doesn't actively hunt for LGBT people and send them for treatment. In fact I th…

The world doesn't declare war on countries because of their internal wrong doings. Do you actually think ww2 was fought because the world wanted to stop German mistreatment of its undesirables?

Re: Google to open artificial intelligence centre in China

#32

Post by paradite »

darepublic wrote: post #31
paradite wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So assuming what you described is true, why hasn't the rest of the world declared war against the communist China? Because it's not close to what Nazis did. And that's my point. Btw, from the articles that you linked, it is quite clear that treating LGBT as disease is not a government policy. In fact, it is against the law. The government doesn't actively hunt for LGBT people and send them for treatment. In fact I th…

The world doesn't declare war on countries because of their internal wrong doings. Do you actually think ww2 was fought because the world wanted to stop German mistreatment of its undesirables?

> The world doesn't declare war on countries because of their internal wrong doings.

Yes, that's exactly what I wanted to say. Thanks for pointing out how China is different from Nazi.

Re: Google to open artificial intelligence centre in China

#33

Post by astebbin »

paradite wrote: post #26
adventured wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact is Communist China has a very deep history of "cleansing" what they define as undesirables, which continues today in various forms. Today (and for decades now) they're aggressively attempting to "cleanse" homosexuals using state resources, torturing thousands of people. [1][2] China's Communist system also "cleansed" a vast number of people throughout its recent history. Over two decades they murdered (or se…

So assuming what you described is true, why hasn't the rest of the world declared war against the communist China? Because it's not close to what Nazis did. And that's my point. Btw, from the articles that you linked, it is quite clear that treating LGBT as disease is not a government policy. In fact, it is against the law. The government doesn't actively hunt for LGBT people and send them for treatment. In fact I th…

Your logic is not sound. North Korea was recently described as a worse human rights abuser than Nazi Germany, by a Holocaust survivor no less [0]. In spite of this commonly-held perception, no country has declared war on them, for many of the same economic and military reasons that no country has or would declare war on China.

[0] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/north-korea/north-korean-gulags...

Re: Google to open artificial intelligence centre in China

#34

Post by exelius »

opportune wrote: post #24
kercker wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An AI center is not a product like a search engine or Windows, or an e-commerce site. It helps China cultivate talents, why would China limit its influence. MSRA accomplishes many things worthwhile such as ResNet in China, and it prospers now. Some researchers enter MSRA, and some leave. They enter or leave not because the government force them to do so, they enter or leave because they can tell where opportunity res…

I'm not asking why China would limit it, I'm asking what Google gains from it. If Google's top talent in China will mostly be poached within the next 10 years, is it really worthwhile to open a research center there? MSRA is a very good example, but at the end of the day, it's still a training ground for Chinese researchers. Paradoxically, the more important it is that Chinese researchers work on at Google China, the…

It's far easier to find ML talent in China than it is in the US. That's what they gain from it.

Re: Google to open artificial intelligence centre in China

#35

Post by aerodeck »

LostInTheWoods2 wrote: post #29
opportune wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not asking why China would limit it, I'm asking what Google gains from it. If Google's top talent in China will mostly be poached within the next 10 years, is it really worthwhile to open a research center there? MSRA is a very good example, but at the end of the day, it's still a training ground for Chinese researchers. Paradoxically, the more important it is that Chinese researchers work on at Google China, the…

On one hand, I have to agree that China's closed/censored society is directly at odds with the product offering of a company like Google ... on the other hand, does one simply disengage from such a massive market as China? Perhaps Google is betting on a future when there is greater freedom for the Chinese people.

What makes you say that China's closed/censored society is directly at odds with Google's products?

Re: Google to open artificial intelligence centre in China

#36

Post by opportune »

LostInTheWoods2 wrote: post #29
opportune wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not asking why China would limit it, I'm asking what Google gains from it. If Google's top talent in China will mostly be poached within the next 10 years, is it really worthwhile to open a research center there? MSRA is a very good example, but at the end of the day, it's still a training ground for Chinese researchers. Paradoxically, the more important it is that Chinese researchers work on at Google China, the…

On one hand, I have to agree that China's closed/censored society is directly at odds with the product offering of a company like Google ... on the other hand, does one simply disengage from such a massive market as China? Perhaps Google is betting on a future when there is greater freedom for the Chinese people.

I personally think Google's best approach would be to pay hand-over-fist for the best Chinese AI/ML experts to emigrate to the US and do their work here. However, Google seems to be taking the shotgun approach of employing more experts in the short-term while guaranteeing them less job stability in the long-term.

I think you're right in that it really does depend on when China becomes a free society. Personally, from what/who I know from China, I don't see this happening within the next decade. I expect political instability within China to reach a tipping point, after which we'll either see a very slow global liberalization or a definitive move towards a more totalitarian Chinese government with a modern twist.

Honestly I don't know why Google has any faith in the good will of the future Chinese government. As has been established for a very long time, China needs foreign expertise more than any foreign company needs a labor or consumer market within China.

Re: Google to open artificial intelligence centre in China

#37

Post by opportune »

exelius wrote: post #34
opportune wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not asking why China would limit it, I'm asking what Google gains from it. If Google's top talent in China will mostly be poached within the next 10 years, is it really worthwhile to open a research center there? MSRA is a very good example, but at the end of the day, it's still a training ground for Chinese researchers. Paradoxically, the more important it is that Chinese researchers work on at Google China, the…

It's far easier to find ML talent in China than it is in the US. That's what they gain from it.

Not necessarily easier, just cheaper. Google can throw as much money at ML as it wants, but I contend that a top ML researcher is probably worth at least 3-5x more than mediocre one.

Re: Google to open artificial intelligence centre in China

#38

Post by logicchains »

opportune wrote: post #37
exelius wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's far easier to find ML talent in China than it is in the US. That's what they gain from it.

Not necessarily easier, just cheaper. Google can throw as much money at ML as it wants, but I contend that a top ML researcher is probably worth at least 3-5x more than mediocre one.

Not necessarily cheaper: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-24/in-battle...

Re: Google to open artificial intelligence centre in China

#39

Post by seanmcdirmid »

skybrian wrote: post #30
opportune wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not asking why China would limit it, I'm asking what Google gains from it. If Google's top talent in China will mostly be poached within the next 10 years, is it really worthwhile to open a research center there? MSRA is a very good example, but at the end of the day, it's still a training ground for Chinese researchers. Paradoxically, the more important it is that Chinese researchers work on at Google China, the…

Yes, employees can leave. How is that different from anywhere else? Google gains from whatever they were paid to do while working there. It seems unlikely that competition for employees will be stronger in China than in Silicon Valley.

Competition for employees at the high end is just as intense in Beijing and the rest of china; there is plenty of junior talent to be tapped however.

Re: Google to open artificial intelligence centre in China

#40

Post by exelius »

opportune wrote: post #37
exelius wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's far easier to find ML talent in China than it is in the US. That's what they gain from it.

Not necessarily easier, just cheaper. Google can throw as much money at ML as it wants, but I contend that a top ML researcher is probably worth at least 3-5x more than mediocre one.

Yeah, I've worked with quite a few top ML researchers at US universities and many of them are Chinese nationals. Even here in the US. With China's economy booming the way it is and the overall political climate in the US right now, many see a better quality of life for themselves and their families in China. It's not just about cost.
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