France to ban mobile phones in primary, junior and middle schools • Hacker News Board

Re: France to ban mobile phones in primary, junior and middle schools

#141

Post by saberlynx » Wed, Dec 13, 2017, 12:32 PM UTC

avip wrote: post #29

Sounds like pure common sense to me. Schools are implicitly responsible for the overall well-being of kids. Many schools ban smoking, sugary snacks/drinks, some dressing style (or non-dressing), makeup. Many parents would love to send their kids to schools without a phone, this will empower and support them.

Sure. It’s pure common sense. And parents can totally send their kids to school without a phone. I agree with everything in this legislation save for the fact that it’s a legislation. My future kid wouldn’t even get a smartphone until age 15, if I keep my mindset for this long.

But do we live in an age where parental and community authority are so diminished that parents need the power of the state to bolster their discipline of their kids? Maybe we cater to the kids too much in that case. My mother was never afraid of enforcing rules with me. Every kid in my life had a gameboy growing up. Except me. I complained and said everyone had one. I’m really grateful she didn’t just fold to me because I’m not addicted to video games and knowing my generally addictive personality, I would be if I had been playing games for hours since the age of 4.

I threw a tantrum. For sure. Many tantrums. I said abusive things that I’m ashamed of, because she wouldn’t buy me a gameboy. But dealing with childish outbursts is a part of parenting. We don’t fold to children just because they make our lives unpleasant. She was also under social pressure from my uncle (whose son had a gameboy). She ignored it.

My high school has a VPN that banned Facebook during school hours. We were sent to the principal’s for disrupting the class or playing with our phones. Must we involve the state in everything?

It’s also pure common sense not to cheat on your spouse, or let a young child have an iPad, or watch more than 3 hours of TV in a day. Or drink too much soda. Or not going to them gym. By this logic, we should outlaw these too? Why is our reaction to minor suboptimal behavior to involve the state? There are many intermediary steps to enforce such a thing before needing to do this.

Re: France to ban mobile phones in primary, junior and middle schools

#142

Post by Daycrawler » Wed, Dec 13, 2017, 12:34 PM UTC

cspags wrote: post #27

noobermin wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that is a step too far. Imagine they banned books during breaks. That's how far this is. I get you want to not have them use them during class but that is the general policing class behavior that teachers are supposed to do. Why ban them during breaks when it doesn't hurt their studies?

It may not hurt their studies, but perhaps their social skills. I recently stayed at a hostel, and when I first walked in I noticed how in the common area almost every single person was alone on their phone. It made me long for the pre-smartphone days in which I imagine travelers were forced to socialize with each other. While school lunch is a slightly different situation, I think it still applies that without phone…

They just read the newspaper before smartphone. Strangers don't magically socialize. At worst they stay there doing nothing.

Re: France to ban mobile phones in primary, junior and middle schools

#143

Post by j_s » Wed, Dec 13, 2017, 12:39 PM UTC

greglindahl wrote: post #80

aluhut wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has nothing to do with independence. Kids need the attention of their parent. We are social beings. Those zombie parents kids develop into something the parents will later want to medicate shifting the blame on the kid. In no way will there be something BETTER.

When I grew up, I had long periods of time during which my parents weren't around. I socialized with other children. Imagine that!

"Parents now spend twice as much time with their children as 50 years ago" | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15800082 two weeks ago.

I was suprised to see the following wasn't at the top:

>baldfat: The problem is that 90% of the time the parents are now on their phones.

Re: France to ban mobile phones in primary, junior and middle schools

#144

Post by lsd5you » Wed, Dec 13, 2017, 12:39 PM UTC

mgraczyk wrote: post #131

110011 wrote: post #121

The way mobile phones are being used in the present day, by both children and adults alike, is unhealthy and at the very least it can be said that the potential ill effects are not very well understood. Much like how research into the ill effects of smoking were not properly understood during its heydays in the early 20th century when it was a sign of social sophistication and took many decades before a conclusive li…

Just because something annoys you or you find it conflicts with your values does not make it unhealthy. I remember life before smartphones. I remember boredom. It sucked. I would never go back to the agonizing pain of sitting in the DMV for three ours or standing in line at a grocery store just for some "missed moment" where I study the shitty tabloids in line or DoT pamphlets. Romanticising the past is not new. Whet…

This is going to be a bit like the gambling debate, since if you do just use it responsibly then yeah, it's probably going to be a net benefit by most value systems. The issue is is the creaping, insidious havoc it is wreaking it peoples lives.

I have seen people - who by simple analysis of the counterfactual would be ok without the internet - have their lives ruined.

As for the young, it is a massive change and we cannot be sure about the harm it may have on them as a cohort as they get older. There was a study that showed phones cost the equivalent of (I think it was) a missed week of school per year in educational attainment.

But I think more than that. Like a lot of dependents/addicts people will , when being candid admit that they would prefer a life without these devices (I like to think I am not merely projecting here).

Romanticising may not be new, but the rate of progress on many serious issues has halted in the west. Despite, new drugs, new technology, higher funding ... etc.

  - Depression and suicide are increasing problems

  - Educational attainment has stalled

  - Productivity growth has ground to a halt

Re: France to ban mobile phones in primary, junior and middle schools

#145

Post by jasonkester » Wed, Dec 13, 2017, 12:46 PM UTC

zimpenfish wrote: post #138

jasonkester wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, he's right. Until about 10 years ago, meeting people was an integral part of travel. You'd be essentially cut off from your friends back home (apart from maybe a daily email session), so you made new friends wherever you went. You'd go down to the common area of the hostel (or the beach bar near your bungalow in SE Asia), and strike up a conversation with pretty much anybody, since everybody there was traveling a…

> You'd go down to the common area of the hostel [] and strike up a conversation with pretty much anybody Don't conflate what you would do with the general case - I, for one, -might- venture to a common area but it's extremely unlikely I'd ever consider trying to strike up a conversation.

Apologies if I was not clear. That was what I observed other people doing. Lots of talking, lots of "new best friends", nobody sitting alone pretty much anywhere.

Worldwide, as observed during 15 years of ~6months/year traveling. Most travelers during that period were, in fact, open to speaking to one another.

And again, in the last 5 years of doing trips on several continents, people you see at "the bar down at the beach" are usually looking at their phone, even when seated at the same table as other travelers.

That never used to happen. And I bet if we crossed paths back then and I asked you where you were from, you would have replied. And we may have even had a conversation.

Re: France to ban mobile phones in primary, junior and middle schools

#146

Post by d13 » Wed, Dec 13, 2017, 12:48 PM UTC

Montezuma_II wrote: post #25

I think this is a mainly positive move. Mobile phones are massive distractions to children, especially in a school context. When it comes to young children, I am skeptic to the use of digital technology in education in general. School should help incorporate good habits into a child's routine, such as reading books, and nailing reliance on phones into children is not something we want to be doing in schools.

If phones are providing children with a more stimulating experience than school, the schools themselves should improve their product, rather than banning the competition.

Re: France to ban mobile phones in primary, junior and middle schools

#147

Post by bambax » Wed, Dec 13, 2017, 12:50 PM UTC

alexduros wrote: post #129

I don't know if it's good or bad news. But what is very disappointing is that when French government deal with digital natives issues, it's a question about "should we fear about smartphones or not ?" As Laurent Alexandre explains it perfectly ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJowm24piM4 , in french) in many talks he gives those times to the French government, we should spend more thinking about how to educate our c…

> full of chalk and blackboard

Thanks for the link to Mr. Alexandre's talk; very informative. He's a little heavy on the hyperbole but many of his warnings ring true, esp. the fact that Europe is squashed between the American GAFA and the Asian BATX, with no response of her own.

That said, French schools are not esp. technology-adverse; most (all?) classrooms are equipped with a "TNI" (tableau noir interactif) which is in fact a great improvement versus traditional blackboard and chalk.

Banning smartphones in schools is a very good thing IMHO; teaching technology is a distinct issue; kids don't use smartphones to learn technology but, most of the time, to consume content or exchange messages.

Just because you have a car doesn't make you a mechanic, but it makes you walk less.

Re: France to ban mobile phones in primary, junior and middle schools

#148

Post by a3_nm » Wed, Dec 13, 2017, 12:55 PM UTC

d13 wrote: post #146

Montezuma_II wrote: post #25

I think this is a mainly positive move. Mobile phones are massive distractions to children, especially in a school context. When it comes to young children, I am skeptic to the use of digital technology in education in general. School should help incorporate good habits into a child's routine, such as reading books, and nailing reliance on phones into children is not something we want to be doing in schools.

If phones are providing children with a more stimulating experience than school, the schools themselves should improve their product, rather than banning the competition.

I don't think the competition is fair. The requirement to teach useful things to children makes it substantially harder to design experiences that are as stimulating as pointless distractions.

Re: France to ban mobile phones in primary, junior and middle schools

#149

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Dec 13, 2017, 12:58 PM UTC

Montezuma_II wrote: post #25

I think this is a mainly positive move. Mobile phones are massive distractions to children, especially in a school context. When it comes to young children, I am skeptic to the use of digital technology in education in general. School should help incorporate good habits into a child's routine, such as reading books, and nailing reliance on phones into children is not something we want to be doing in schools.

[deleted]

Re: France to ban mobile phones in primary, junior and middle schools

#150

Post by Cthulhu_ » Wed, Dec 13, 2017, 12:59 PM UTC

d13 wrote: post #146

Montezuma_II wrote: post #25

I think this is a mainly positive move. Mobile phones are massive distractions to children, especially in a school context. When it comes to young children, I am skeptic to the use of digital technology in education in general. School should help incorporate good habits into a child's routine, such as reading books, and nailing reliance on phones into children is not something we want to be doing in schools.

If phones are providing children with a more stimulating experience than school, the schools themselves should improve their product, rather than banning the competition.

The problem / challenge there is that school isn't very stimulating, or, not for everyone - school, especially elementary and secondary school, are based more on discipline and forcing people to learn a basic curriculum, whether they like it or not. If they get distracted by their phones or whatever they'll run behind, score low on their tests, end up in a lower secondary / tertiary education, aaaand have to settle for an okay job.

Kids are very easily distracted, and the current school systems are designed to deal with those by removing distractions and forcing a bit of discipline.

The alternative would be more personally optimized education, but that's a lot more expensive and harder to scale - and teachers are already an underpaid and overworked demographic.

Besides, kids that age use their phone more for social contacts and distractions than learning stuff.