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France to ban mobile phones in primary, junior and middle schools

theguardian.com

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Re: France to ban mobile phones in primary, junior and middle schools

#111

Post by latch »

seszett wrote: post #96
latch wrote: post #17

Shouldn't this be a matter for individual schools or school boards (the article says some already have this in place)? I like the policy, but as I get older, I wonder why we have so many laws that control so much of what we can and can't do. I agree this one's pretty benign, but it still seems like an excess of authority. When I was in school, if I distracted another student or played on my calculator, I'd get in tro…

> Shouldn't this be a matter for individual schools or school boards (the article says some already have this in place)? The policy for National Education in France is to have as little difference as possible between schools. Parents cannot readily choose the school their children go to, as well (unless they switch to a private school, but this is marginal, and it costs money) so it makes sense to have them all have…

I see what you mean. I'm still curious why this has to be a law though? Aren't there a bunch of policies in schools that are enforced without the need for law?

I didn't put this in my original comment, but I think what really got under my skin from the article was:

"The minister said the ban was also a “public health message to families”, adding: “It’s good that children are not too often, or even at all, in front of a screen before the age of seven."

Which takes it from "as little difference as possible between schools" to "we have an opinion about how you should raise your kids and we'll use laws to send that 'message'". Yes, there are already plenty of reasonable and good laws place limits and requirements on parents. This just seems way over the line.

Re: France to ban mobile phones in primary, junior and middle schools

#112

Post by watwut »

dazc wrote: post #30
noobermin wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that is a step too far. Imagine they banned books during breaks. That's how far this is. I get you want to not have them use them during class but that is the general policing class behavior that teachers are supposed to do. Why ban them during breaks when it doesn't hurt their studies?

'why ban them during breaks...' School isn't just about academic study, it's also where you make friends and learn how to interact with others. I think mobile phones get in the way of this by enabling kids to just communicate within already established cliques?

Yeah, let's make it even harder for lonely kids. I mean seriosly, why do highly social people have so little empathy for introverted ones?

Re: France to ban mobile phones in primary, junior and middle schools

#113

Post by greglindahl »

aluhut wrote: post #98
greglindahl wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am aware that the rules for that are very different from when I was a child and now.

It's got nothing to do with rules. It used to be common sense when I grew up. Also, there are bonding mechanisms in all kids that require feedback from a parent in their early years. This is where your parents attention is necessary. This is also where a kid can develop certain problems if they don't get this attention. My SO sees those failures of zombie parents every day at work. The only thing worse is the parents…

Huh. I spent plenty of time with my parents, and plenty of time without. Yet today's "common sense" says that almost everyone in my generation was raised by wolves.

Re: France to ban mobile phones in primary, junior and middle schools

#114

Post by tehwalrus »

AndrewDucker wrote: post #97
cspags wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may not hurt their studies, but perhaps their social skills. I recently stayed at a hostel, and when I first walked in I noticed how in the common area almost every single person was alone on their phone. It made me long for the pre-smartphone days in which I imagine travelers were forced to socialize with each other. While school lunch is a slightly different situation, I think it still applies that without phone…

"It made me long for the pre-smartphone days in which I imagine travelers were forced to socialize with each other." Having lived through the horrors of the pre-smartphone days, I can tell you that this wasn't the case. See, for instance: https://i.pinimg.com/474x/1a/a1/7b/1aa17b28aad6df78a2e1d2016... or https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/540/1*U36hBj8i-C7JJJxS4M...

Hmm, that's not the comparison here. Wanderers, travellers (especially those in youth hostels) were often doing that activity in part to meet a wide variety of people, something they were less able to do staying in one place at that time.

(Edit: I should mention that I'm citing my Dad in my head here, who is an embarrassingly social creature in situations where I would never strike up a conversation. He spent a lot of time travelling around Europe in the 70s staying at youth hostels, e.g. in his university vacations.)

I believe this need is fulfilled by things like Tumblr now, where there are close nit communities centred around specific (often odd) interests and identities, who are vastly geographically spread. The same could be said to an extent for other social networks too, of course, including this website :)

Re: France to ban mobile phones in primary, junior and middle schools

#115

Post by watwut »

zelos wrote: post #36

Can we limit them for use by parents as well? Playgrounds seem to be the place parents go to look at Facebook while their kids yell "look at me mummy" forlornly.

And on another thread, everyone complains about parents following childen around on playground and not allowing them a little bit of independence.

Re: France to ban mobile phones in primary, junior and middle schools

#117

Post by watwut »

dazc wrote: post #62
eesmith wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither of those are true, not in any systemic sense. Some old people love to grouse about how Things Were Better Then, and how Children Used To Respect Authority. It's been that way for millennia. You ever read Heinlein? Back in the 1950s, his "Have Spacesuit Will Travel" complained about how schools were too touchy-feely, intent more on having students feel good than providing a good education.

'Some old people love to grouse about how Things Were Better Then, and how Children Used To Respect Authority...' I don't know if things were better then but (as a kid in the 70's) we certainly respected authority because the threat of physical violence was a real one. I am not saying that was a good thing by the way, just explaining.

Young people today commit less crime overall, less violent crime, get pregnant less often and take less drugs. So much for respect.

Re: France to ban mobile phones in primary, junior and middle schools

#118

Post by opportune »

latch wrote: post #111
seszett wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Shouldn't this be a matter for individual schools or school boards (the article says some already have this in place)? The policy for National Education in France is to have as little difference as possible between schools. Parents cannot readily choose the school their children go to, as well (unless they switch to a private school, but this is marginal, and it costs money) so it makes sense to have them all have…

I see what you mean. I'm still curious why this has to be a law though? Aren't there a bunch of policies in schools that are enforced without the need for law? I didn't put this in my original comment, but I think what really got under my skin from the article was: "The minister said the ban was also a “public health message to families”, adding: “It’s good that children are not too often, or even at all, in front of…

Sure, there a few reasons to do it like this.

First, my impression is that you still have the right to send your children to a private school where this won't be enforced. So it's not a law, it's a policy passed at the national level for the public schools, which are organized from the national level.

Secondly, passing the law at the national level deals with the situation where a school gets "bullied" into not passing the policy to begin with. For example, parents might prioritize being able to coordinate pickups in real-time over their children's education (I'm not implying bad intent: they just might not recognize the negative impact of their children's mobile use during class time) and thus pressure a school to not ban mobile use during class time.

Personally I think your own definitions of what are reasonable and what are not are skewed. You think it's over the line to claim that "children are not too often, or even at all, in front of a screen before the age of seven"??? What could a five or six year old possibly be doing on a smart phone aside from watching videos and playing games? Why do middle schoolers need access to their phones during lunch - what do they gain from it?

I'm not French though, so someone will have to double check me on the claim that this is actually a national policy for public schools rather than an actual law.

Re: France to ban mobile phones in primary, junior and middle schools

#120

Post by seszett »

latch wrote: post #111
seszett wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Shouldn't this be a matter for individual schools or school boards (the article says some already have this in place)? The policy for National Education in France is to have as little difference as possible between schools. Parents cannot readily choose the school their children go to, as well (unless they switch to a private school, but this is marginal, and it costs money) so it makes sense to have them all have…

I see what you mean. I'm still curious why this has to be a law though? Aren't there a bunch of policies in schools that are enforced without the need for law? I didn't put this in my original comment, but I think what really got under my skin from the article was: "The minister said the ban was also a “public health message to families”, adding: “It’s good that children are not too often, or even at all, in front of…

> I'm still curious why this has to be a law though? Aren't there a bunch of policies in schools that are enforced without the need for law?

Well, nation-wide rules for education are written as laws in the "Code de l'éducation", maybe it's different in other countries but as long as it's legally binding for the schools I don't think it's very important whether it's called a law, a directive or an executive order.

Policies that are not laws are decrees from the local authorities, but they only have the power to enact rules that are directly relevant to their level (like, the local region can forbid children from going outside during hurricanes in Réunion, but not to forbid cellphones in Brittany).

> we have an opinion about how you should raise your kids and we'll use laws to send that 'message'

Yes, that's the universalist basis of the French National Education. It has been working well enough for the last two centuries and I don't see anything wrong with it.

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