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France to ban mobile phones in primary, junior and middle schools

theguardian.com

91–100 of 358 posts

Re: France to ban mobile phones in primary, junior and middle schools

#91

>The minister said the ban was also a “public health message to families”, adding: “It’s good that children are not too often, or even at all, in front of a screen before the age of seven.” I remember being a little kid and wanting to learn about space and submarines and sharks, and not being able to. I'd read my local library's books on those subjects, but I lived in a little town with a puny library so quickly exha…

>The minister said the ban was also a “public health message to families”, adding: “It’s good that children are not too often, or even at all, in front of a screen before the age of seven.” Citation-fucking-required for this one, with conclusive evidence proving that it's true for all kids under seven. AKA he pulled it out of his ass.

Why do you seem so angry about this ?

Re: France to ban mobile phones in primary, junior and middle schools

#92
Thie is completely the wrong approach. Rather, schools should work to ensure that all kids learn how to use digital devices (not just phones) for their own benefit. If all they see at home is parents or siblings on Facebook, Skype and mobile games, then that's what they'll do too. Schools have to teach for reality, boy try to recreate some unrealistic and nostalgic "how it was in the day". Look at Finland and Estonia, they use technology meaningfully in class and get great results. It's not about using it all the time, but about using it where it fits. Prohibiting phones will just lead to new ways of circumventing the ban, new kinds of conflicts, punishments for kids for living what is today a normal life.

If your only approach is to ban & punish, then those phones in kids' hands will be only used for whatever is the easiest low-value engagement. Teach kids that they can use Wikipedia, ebooks, educational videos, and creative tools to satisfy their interests, look up things from class that they don't understand, work together to make a presentation for class, programme Lego or other robots, practice vocabulary and interact with students from abroad in their second or third language, make little videos about the things they've learned, etc and you'll get great results. Frontal lecture causes distractions because it's fundamentally boring, unengaging and loses half the class. Tech can help - if used right. To give just one reference, out of thousands, see eg the OECD Report on this [1].

Tech can be really disruptive. And it can be a great facilitator for learning. It's about how it's used and whether students learnb to use it creatively, critically and constructively. You won't learn which mushrooms are edible by being kept out of the forest, and neither by being thrown into a forest and told to do whatever. You learn to understand what is edible, harmful, useful, ... if an experienced person that knows how to do so accompanies you in the forest once in a while and shows it, explains it and watches as you try to do it yourself in a real forest that you might encounter. Keeping kids away from phones, or allowing them to do whatever will have the same results - they'll play, eat the harmful mushrooms and fail to see the fantastic opportunities. Accompany them in using their own devices. That's the task of an educator today - teach kids how to live in today's world. Not smartphones every minute of the day, but also not forbidden. Use them were it fits. Show them what role they can play.

Principally, this requires teacher training, adapting curricula and testing, and efforts in particular to make sure no kid is left out. Those from good families with educated parents will mostly learn this through parents or after-school activities, but especially poor/migrant/otherwise low performing students will suffer if you don't make sure education teaches them for the world of today.

Really, really sad. This is a purely ideological move, catering to an older, reluctantly digital voter population. But it is also a betrayal of the very kids it claims to help.

[1] http://www.oecd.org/publications/students-computers-and-lear...

Re: France to ban mobile phones in primary, junior and middle schools

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you agree that using electronic devices to "download Shakespeare" is highly unusual in primary school, and that most kids just use their phones to play games/watch YouTube and other distractions?

The deeper question is - how do we make it not unusual, but a normal things that kids just do?

There was a Mac Plus in the classroom at school. We were given some classes in LogoWriter, and I excelled at it.

My dad found an abandoned Mac Plus next to the church one evening, but it was broken. He gave it to me and told me that if I fix it, it's mine. Of course it was much slower than the family computer, but I wanted my own! So I learned how to replace the motherboard, and kept writing more programs on it for fun.

I then sort of stopped programming for a few years, until I wanted to download eBooks and copy music, and I wrote an HTML parser and iTunes tagging script using AppleScript. Since then I've been coding continuously.

There are many ridiculous rules that are applied to "children", because they're "too young". I'm sure that Seymour Papert and the Raspberry Pi Foundation would disagree. In fact, I'd like to ask some younger friends from church if they could do a coding project with me and we can post it on HN and see if they get the equal recognition they deserve.

There should be some balance between interrupting class work and giving people the freedom to explore independently. But if the class is really that boring, I can hardly blame the kids for playing games instead. Instead of punishing people, why not make the class more interesting?

Re: France to ban mobile phones in primary, junior and middle schools

#94
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I grew up, I had long periods of time during which my parents weren't around. I socialized with other children. Imagine that!

You are aware that there are playgrounds and ages where parents have to be around their kids are you?

I am aware that the rules for that are very different from when I was a child and now.

Re: France to ban mobile phones in primary, junior and middle schools

#95

Thie is completely the wrong approach. Rather, schools should work to ensure that all kids learn how to use digital devices (not just phones) for their own benefit. If all they see at home is parents or siblings on Facebook, Skype and mobile games, then that's what they'll do too. Schools have to teach for reality, boy try to recreate some unrealistic and nostalgic "how it was in the day". Look at Finland and Estonia…

The example of small, almost completely homogenous Baltic countries is more hurtful than helpful when applied elsewhere.

Re: France to ban mobile phones in primary, junior and middle schools

#96
post #17

Shouldn't this be a matter for individual schools or school boards (the article says some already have this in place)? I like the policy, but as I get older, I wonder why we have so many laws that control so much of what we can and can't do. I agree this one's pretty benign, but it still seems like an excess of authority. When I was in school, if I distracted another student or played on my calculator, I'd get in tro…

> Shouldn't this be a matter for individual schools or school boards (the article says some already have this in place)?

The policy for National Education in France is to have as little difference as possible between schools. Parents cannot readily choose the school their children go to, as well (unless they switch to a private school, but this is marginal, and it costs money) so it makes sense to have them all have the same rules.

I see no reason for a school in one city to allow cell phones, while one in another city bans them. Children are the same humans with the same broad needs and behaviours in the whole country.

Re: France to ban mobile phones in primary, junior and middle schools

#97
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that is a step too far. Imagine they banned books during breaks. That's how far this is. I get you want to not have them use them during class but that is the general policing class behavior that teachers are supposed to do. Why ban them during breaks when it doesn't hurt their studies?

It may not hurt their studies, but perhaps their social skills. I recently stayed at a hostel, and when I first walked in I noticed how in the common area almost every single person was alone on their phone. It made me long for the pre-smartphone days in which I imagine travelers were forced to socialize with each other. While school lunch is a slightly different situation, I think it still applies that without phone…

"It made me long for the pre-smartphone days in which I imagine travelers were forced to socialize with each other."

Having lived through the horrors of the pre-smartphone days, I can tell you that this wasn't the case. See, for instance: https://i.pinimg.com/474x/1a/a1/7b/1aa17b28aad6df78a2e1d2016... or https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/540/1*U36hBj8i-C7JJJxS4M...

Re: France to ban mobile phones in primary, junior and middle schools

#98
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are aware that there are playgrounds and ages where parents have to be around their kids are you?

I am aware that the rules for that are very different from when I was a child and now.

It's got nothing to do with rules. It used to be common sense when I grew up. Also, there are bonding mechanisms in all kids that require feedback from a parent in their early years. This is where your parents attention is necessary. This is also where a kid can develop certain problems if they don't get this attention. My SO sees those failures of zombie parents every day at work. The only thing worse is the parents ignorance.

Same goes for playgrounds that are in difficult areas or conditions of course.

Re: France to ban mobile phones in primary, junior and middle schools

#99
post #85

Blanket bans of this kind rarely work, and policies like this are usually caused by other factors. My primary school had a concrete playground without any trees, and school policy forbid us from running (so we wouldn't hurt ourselves), from playing games like tag (so we wouldn't run) or clapping each other's hands (because we could hurt ourselves). We also couldn't play card games to protect against gambling, nor gat…

It sounds like your school was run in an authoritarian and deeply unpleasant way. That's sad and infuriating, but I don't think that has any particular relevance to banning an object which didn't exist at the time.

Re: France to ban mobile phones in primary, junior and middle schools

#100

>The minister said the ban was also a “public health message to families”, adding: “It’s good that children are not too often, or even at all, in front of a screen before the age of seven.” I remember being a little kid and wanting to learn about space and submarines and sharks, and not being able to. I'd read my local library's books on those subjects, but I lived in a little town with a puny library so quickly exha…

>The minister said the ban was also a “public health message to families”, adding: “It’s good that children are not too often, or even at all, in front of a screen before the age of seven.” Citation-fucking-required for this one, with conclusive evidence proving that it's true for all kids under seven. AKA he pulled it out of his ass.

Here's an opinionated overview:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/mental-wealth/201402/gr...

It is not even an unreasonable assumption that things that are fine for adults may not be harmless for developing brains. But it seems that---as usual---this topic is poorly understood as there may be confounding factors that are not controlled for.

A counterpoint is given here:

https://www.theguardian.com/science/head-quarters/2013/aug/2...

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