Live data from Hacker News

Don't Talk to the Police (2012)

youtube.com

161–170 of 172 posts

Re: Don't Talk to the Police (2012)

#161
post #7

How far do you take this? For example, suppose you hear someone down the street yell, "My baby!", look up, and see a man shove a woman to the ground, take a baby from a stroller, get into a car with the baby, and drive quickly up the street, leaving behind the woman screaming "He took my baby! Help!". They pass you, and a block farther up turn left onto a freeway on ramp. 30 seconds later a police officer drives by,…

I think maybe a more nuanced rephrasing of "never talk to the police" is "talking to the police will only make you more likely, not less likely, to be convicted of a crime". If your values system is to minimize your chance of being convicted of a crime above all other things, then you'd say "I will not answer without a lawyer" in this situation. But if you're a compassionate human being and want to help others, even…

You are talking as if not talking to the police is by itself a moral abomination, but there's a lot of points you're not considering.

a) Odds of getting into that situation are a million to one, against.

b) Odds of your information helping to find said baby are a million to one, against (and even that is very optimistic I would say)

c) Odds of a police officer asking you that question because they want to have someone to blame for the crime are low, but significantly higher than 1/1e12

So I think that both on moral grounds, and on legal grounds, you should say something evasive first, and if the officer doesn't go away at that point you definitely should say the "any question you can send to my lawyer, and we will do our best to answer as soon as possible" line.

And, by the way, your lawyer will be angry if you do anything else.

More generally I would encourage you to think about the role of the police in a society. Not in the "the state is right and absolutely moral" way you seem to be stuck in. A state is fundamentally unjust. No matter how democratic, no matter how well it's going economically. I have worked as a consultant at a ton of "high" state organisations and I guarantee you, a month at any of them is enough to cure anyone of the notions you have.

At best, states are a necessary evil. They make some necessary things happen that would otherwise not happen. The police are their enforcers. Like any other power structure, they give ego-satisfying perks and social status to their enforcers, and so you can imagine the kind of person and motivation that a police officer generally is. And if there's one thing that can be absolutely guaranteed, it's that there is no just way to use violence to resolve situations (but a few good looks at the law will quickly absolve you of the notion that they're just, or even intended to be just). The state is not your friend. And especially the police is not your friend.

And I realize this point is contentious, but have you ever thought about how arrogant it is to assume there is a single "just" system at all ? There's many models of morality, from natural morality, to utilitarianism, to the various religions, to ... Important to remember is that they're all different, conflicting and self-contradictory.

Re: Don't Talk to the Police (2012)

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

easy. the kid was pinned down, face down, from the very start of the video. officer 1 advances to cuff, officer 2 covers. so fucking simple.

See, here's the difference - I'm talking about a pattern, and you're talking about the exact situation. You can't train most people to act according to each individual situation in an intelligent manner, especially when situation is very scary, and those rare people who can be trained to do this are usually in special ops, not in regular police. So, when considering a police or military response to a situation, consi…

> You can't train most people to act according to each individual situation in an intelligent manner, especially when situation is very scary

How does this not apply more to the guy who was killed? He had guns pointed at him, at least one of them an assault rifle, was drunk and surprised. There were at least 3 cops there who certainly had more training than the civilian in being in that situation. The blame lies squarely with them.

Re: Don't Talk to the Police (2012)

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think maybe a more nuanced rephrasing of "never talk to the police" is "talking to the police will only make you more likely, not less likely, to be convicted of a crime". If your values system is to minimize your chance of being convicted of a crime above all other things, then you'd say "I will not answer without a lawyer" in this situation. But if you're a compassionate human being and want to help others, even…

You are talking as if not talking to the police is by itself a moral abomination, but there's a lot of points you're not considering. a) Odds of getting into that situation are a million to one, against. b) Odds of your information helping to find said baby are a million to one, against (and even that is very optimistic I would say) c) Odds of a police officer asking you that question because they want to have someon…

We obviously have very different perspectives on this, but a few thoughts:

> Odds of getting into that situation are a million to one, against.

It's a thought experiment. Within the thought experiment, it already happened, and the chances are 100%. "This is an unlikely scenario for me find myself in" probably shouldn't affect your decision-making. You can argue that it's not a worthwhile thought experiment because it's unlikely, but it doesn't sound like that's what you're arguing.

> Odds of your information helping to find said baby are a million to one, against

It's unclear if you're saying it's a lost cause or if the direction the kidnapper went wouldn't be useful, but according to https://www.parents.com/kids/safety/stranger-safety/child-ab..., 80% of children are found alive in nonfamily abductions reported to NCMEC, so my impression is that information soon after a kidnapping has much higher than a one in a million chance of helping.

Alternatively, you could adjust the thought experiment to be "At what probability of saving the baby's life should I give an answer?". "Never talk to the police under any circumstances" (the quote from the video that people seem to be defending literally) means you say nothing even if your chance of saving the baby's life is 100%.

> Not in the "the state is right and absolutely moral" way you seem to be stuck in.

I didn't say that, I didn't imply it, and I don't believe it. This is both a straw man argument and a false dichotomy.

You seem to be putting a very high amount of weight on the fact that the person trying to stop the kidnapping is a police officer. I would try to help regardless of who it is. You really should not be using theory about the role of the state to decide whether or not to help a human being trying to save the life of another human being in an urgent situation.

Re: Don't Talk to the Police (2012)

#164
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can't arrest you without probable cause. Especially if you are inside your house.

They absolutely can arrest you without probable cause. It’s illegal but that is to be decided later - and your case may never be decided if they find some excuse after the fact to legitimize an illegitimate arrest. This is made easy by the protectionism that happens amongst the police.

Cooperate fully, don't talk, and sue everyone involved--especially the local government--afterward. No one cares until it costs money.

Re: Don't Talk to the Police (2012)

#165
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard this advice a lot. Have you ever followed this in real life? How did it work out for you? I worry that cops have the potential to make my life very unpleasant if I annoy them.

"I'm just asking to see if you tell the truth. If you don't answer I know you're guilty". And end up arrested.

Cops don't decide guilt or innocence. That doesn't make any sense.

Re: Don't Talk to the Police (2012)

#166
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I'm just asking to see if you tell the truth. If you don't answer I know you're guilty". And end up arrested.

Cops don't decide guilt or innocence. That doesn't make any sense.

Ever been arrested? It's no fun, and there's understandably a presumption by pretty much all concerned that the cop is telling the truth and the accused perp is not.

What you say is indeed how the law is written, sure, but the truth on the ground is different.

Re: Don't Talk to the Police (2012)

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that after you have requested a lawyer they are obliged to refrain from questioning you.

They're obliged to, but do they actually? This guy asked for a "lawyer dog", which apparently is not a thing. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/true-crime/wp/2017/11/02... Or will asking for a lawyer work for me, since I'm not ethnically diverse?

For another take on the “lawyer dog” case, see here[0].

The takeaway is that if you’re asking for a lawyer to be present during questioning, you need to be unequivocal about it.

That, and Lawyer Dog is totally a real thing[1].

[0] https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/... [1] http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/lawyer-dog

Re: Don't Talk to the Police (2012)

#168
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What country do you live in that what you say to police can't be used against you?

In Germany, after §163 StPO and related the police may interview you as part of an investigation but if you are a suspect you must be told so prior to any interview. You are allowed not to make any statements, which is not considered any crime. Additionally, any statements you make may only be used for discovery of the truth but are not in of themselves considered actual proof or evidence in absence of anything else,…

> You should consider that not all countries think like americans and do not hold the same sentiment as americans. People in other countries think different, not the same.

You should consider that not all Americans think the same and do not hold the same sentiment as other Americans. People throughout the country think different, not the same.

Also, I asked the question to learn more, so it should be apparent that I do understand other countries have different systems. My question was to learn how those systems work.

Re: Don't Talk to the Police (2012)

#169
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What country do you live in that what you say to police can't be used against you?

In most countries the police does an independent investigation, and what you say to them can also be used in your defense. The police can be called to testify on your behalf; just as well as they can testify against you. Not always a reason to talk, but it makes it less dangerous to help the police. After all we do want to help the police catch criminals don't we?

Do you have an example country that I can dig further with?

Re: Don't Talk to the Police (2012)

#170
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, telling someone to "say the bare minimum" doesn't mean saying nothing at all and treating the officer poorly. Don't act superior because you happen to know your rights, that's basically as bad as being a two-bit criminal in their eyes. Police don't recruit people based on their sensitivity and grasp of common sense, they are people who enjoy the power dynamic the job gives them and for the most part 99% of the…

> rebellion against this idea to them is treated as sacrosanct, at least by the average (aka dumb) officer Stereotyping or do you have some evidence is a large population supporting this assertion?

Just the entirety of my life experience and listening to endless hours of police arrest interrogations videos daily which my partner works on in my home office as a defense attorney. Plus the hundreds of true crime documentaries and books we watch/read.

If a researcher was to measure the average IQ of a police officer and it's affect on wrongful arrests/convictions I would more than support such a study....

Post reply on HN