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Make Stronger Offers to Engineering Candidates and Boost Your Closes

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Re: Make Stronger Offers to Engineering Candidates and Boost Your Closes

#121

Post by jrs235 »

dmitrygr wrote: post #41
jcadam wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Money is important, but past a certain point (when you are able to live comfortably and are no longer feeling stressed about your personal/family finances), other factors come into play. Off the top of my head: 1) Respect. By that I mean professional respect - I want to feel that my contributions are valued and that people recognize my talents :) 2) Team. Working with dirtbags is miserable no matter how much you get…

Money is important, but I'm going to stop you right there. #1 is solved by more money. Want me to work in a team that mocks my work? $100k extra will do it #2 is solved by more money. Want me to work with dirtbags? $100k #3 is solved by more money. Want me to wear a "super junior nobody" title? As long as you're up front about it, $100k. #4 is solved by money. My overtime rate is 2x normal rate You know why? Money bu…

I agree with you, that money will offset those issues. But throwing more money at it is a short term "fix". I'll work that crappy job making piles of money with a short time horizon in mind. I'll do it for 6 months to a year saving as much of that over and above normal pay so that I have options in 6 months to a year to take a low or normal paying position someplace I enjoy. (Or fiddle with my own ideas for a year.) The company that just throws money at the problem is also just thinking short term, they are likely going to have high turnover. But, if they have the money to keep throwing at that problem too then their model of burning money and burning people could last a while. Make sense it sounds like it wall street/finance firms focused on money and short term results...

Re: Make Stronger Offers to Engineering Candidates and Boost Your Closes

#122

Post by jrs235 »

eloisant wrote: post #46
dmitrygr wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Money is important, but I'm going to stop you right there. #1 is solved by more money. Want me to work in a team that mocks my work? $100k extra will do it #2 is solved by more money. Want me to work with dirtbags? $100k #3 is solved by more money. Want me to wear a "super junior nobody" title? As long as you're up front about it, $100k. #4 is solved by money. My overtime rate is 2x normal rate You know why? Money bu…

Honestly I don't think that works on long term. The amount of money you make will soon become your new normal, but the shitty condition will continue to make your life miserable. The only difference the extra money makes is that once you got used to the money, you're trapped in that position.

They have to hope people succumb to lifestyle inflation. They probably try to get you hooked on $5000 suits, $200 diners, luxury vehicles, vacations in the Hamptons, etc.

Re: Make Stronger Offers to Engineering Candidates and Boost Your Closes

#123

Post by notyourday »

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #30

Here's what most companies want: >> We only hire "passionate" engineers who have proven themselves to be "rock stars" and we call them "family" so that they can "take one for the team" and forgo a "raise" because we didn't meet our quarter. But we did make enough to give ourselves "bonuses!" I am motivated by money because every company I work for is motivated by money. They want theirs, I want mine. I factor into my…

> I factor into my asking salary a "what if I get screwed" amount.

I can guarantee that the moment it is cheaper to screw you than keep you a successful company will screw you. If a company is not successful, they may miscalculate when they screw you and instead screw themselves in addition to screwing you.

Re: Make Stronger Offers to Engineering Candidates and Boost Your Closes

#124

Post by TheCoelacanth »

literallycancer wrote: post #85
TheCoelacanth wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thinking as an employer, though, is it worth an extra $100k to be able to mock you? Hell no. Politeness is free. Is it worth an extra $100k to be able to employ dirtbags alongside you? Maybe for some jobs that involve ethically dubious actions, but probably not for most. Is it worth an extra $100k to be able to give you a super junior title? No, titles are free. Is it worth 2x your normal rate to get you to work over…

>Is it worth 2x your normal rate to get you to work overtime? Maybe, but that's pretty expensive. They would be better off if they could get another person to do it at a normal rate. >So, you might be willing to put up with those things for more money, but for the employer it is usually a waste of money pay that. It doesn't make sense for an employer to pay extra for those things unless they are really getting a lot…

> If the company can't extract enough value out of the employee's time, maybe they shouldn't ask them to work overtime.

Exactly my point. For highly-remunerated workers like software developers, companies can rarely get as much value out of poor working conditions as it will cost them in extra wages, so it is usually a poor business decision to have poor working conditions.

Re: Make Stronger Offers to Engineering Candidates and Boost Your Closes

#125

Post by TheCoelacanth »

itgoon wrote: post #81
TheCoelacanth wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thinking as an employer, though, is it worth an extra $100k to be able to mock you? Hell no. Politeness is free. Is it worth an extra $100k to be able to employ dirtbags alongside you? Maybe for some jobs that involve ethically dubious actions, but probably not for most. Is it worth an extra $100k to be able to give you a super junior title? No, titles are free. Is it worth 2x your normal rate to get you to work over…

If it is important to you to be able to mock your employees, and you wouldn't run your business without being able to be a jerk like that, then you might want to pay that extra money. Good business? No, but not all businesspeople are good at business. People get into it for very different reasons. I've worked for a lot of acerbic bosses. I charge extra. Right now, with things so tight, it's approaching a 100% premium…

Yes, there are many poorly run businesses. I would never debate that point.

However, this article is explicitly targeted at businesses, so obviously they should be providing advice on how not to be a poorly run business.

Re: Make Stronger Offers to Engineering Candidates and Boost Your Closes

#126

Post by Spooky23 »

BeetleB wrote: post #99
notyourday wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me be a Certified Finance Asshat to demonstrate that you are externalizing money: I will give you $35k/year for 40 hours a week total compensation and you get all the other 4. Why aren't you taking this job? The reason is because you know that it is a laughable salary. FRC has an agenda. Its agenda is convince naive people to go work for their startups ( and other startups ) for Magic and Unicorns, rather than $$…

You're being downvoted because you ignored this: >Money is important, but past a certain point (when you are able to live comfortably and are no longer feeling stressed about your personal/family finances), other factors come into play. It's difficult to counter his comment when you don't address it and give an obviously low salary.

People do stuff like offer lowball offers that aren't livable.

Back in 2000, I got exposed to this out of school-- VP of whatever offers me $27k (with a salary review in 6 months) to be a DBA. "I got up and said 'thanks'". He followed me out to the parking lot and doubled the offer.

At the end of the day, money matters, and all of the bullshit about "other factors" are just brought into the mix because fringe benefits are cheaper than cash. For me, a good working environment is the ante. If you're an asshole, you don't make the cut. The rest is all about compensation.

If you commit to giving me premium health insurance, I'll accept a discount in pay. If you commit to giving me more vacation time, I'll accept a discount in pay. I can play ping pong at the gym for free and my Dr. Pepper habit costs me about $10/week. If you're not an asshole, expect me to take <=10 days of PTO, have a $10k healthcare deductible, you'd best be paying a 50-70% premium to what I'm making today, as I'm going to have to hire minions to do shit for me.

Re: Make Stronger Offers to Engineering Candidates and Boost Your Closes

#127

Post by sidlls »

jcadam wrote: post #8
notyourday wrote: post #2

So. Much. B.S. There is only one thing that people who have not been dropped on a head interested in. It is called money . Money buys them stuff. Money lets them have a nice roof over their head. Money lets their family not worry about a slum in the economy. Everything else is secondary. Here's a magic formula: MaxMoney(Min(work)) 402 "PAY_ME_MORE_MONEY" P.S. That's why it is called a job and not hobby or volunteerin…

Money is important, but past a certain point (when you are able to live comfortably and are no longer feeling stressed about your personal/family finances), other factors come into play. Off the top of my head: 1) Respect. By that I mean professional respect - I want to feel that my contributions are valued and that people recognize my talents :) 2) Team. Working with dirtbags is miserable no matter how much you get…

> (when you are able to live comfortably and are no longer feeling stressed about your personal/family finances)

This is too vague to be quantifiable in the way you intend.

Money is important because it's by far the most common medium by which we acquire things that are necessary for life (e.g. food, shelter). It's important to have sufficient income to have these things in the present and to be able to stash enough reserves of money to have them in the future. Money is important (full stop).

Here's my entirely subjective, anecdotal view: I've never met a person who says "money isn't the most important thing (about a job)" who also was not either: a) well off enough their entire lives that they never really had to worry about not having money or b) engaging in some serious sweet lemons rationalization so as to avoid facing their reality.

Re: Make Stronger Offers to Engineering Candidates and Boost Your Closes

#128

Post by BeetleB »

notyourday wrote: post #104
BeetleB wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're being downvoted because you ignored this: >Money is important, but past a certain point (when you are able to live comfortably and are no longer feeling stressed about your personal/family finances), other factors come into play. It's difficult to counter his comment when you don't address it and give an obviously low salary.

Whenever one needs to quantify using unquantifiable words like "important but past a certain point" it is helpful to solve that point at the limit. Pacifists, for example, will refuse to kill someone who is pointing a gun at their family because of their, in my not humble opinion, stupid beliefs. I may think their beliefs are stupid but I cannot say that they themselves are full of crap because, after all, they live…

>The people who are making claims that money is not the only mandatory thing and everything else is optional nice to have thing(s) tend to weasel out of the lets solve for money being zero ( or minimum wage ).

Except it wasn't his claim.

The claim is pretty well known: Below a certain threshold, money is the most important thing. Above it, it is not. This is very different from the extreme pacifist mindset. The equivalent would be: "There are certain circumstances where it is important to kill another. Outside of those circumstances, it should not be the primary means."

As an aside: Telling people what is important to them and ignoring their own claims on what is important to them will not make you many friends.

Re: Make Stronger Offers to Engineering Candidates and Boost Your Closes

#129

Post by notyourday »

BeetleB wrote: post #128
notyourday wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whenever one needs to quantify using unquantifiable words like "important but past a certain point" it is helpful to solve that point at the limit. Pacifists, for example, will refuse to kill someone who is pointing a gun at their family because of their, in my not humble opinion, stupid beliefs. I may think their beliefs are stupid but I cannot say that they themselves are full of crap because, after all, they live…

>The people who are making claims that money is not the only mandatory thing and everything else is optional nice to have thing(s) tend to weasel out of the lets solve for money being zero ( or minimum wage ). Except it wasn't his claim. The claim is pretty well known: Below a certain threshold, money is the most important thing. Above it, it is not. This is very different from the extreme pacifist mindset. The equiv…

> The claim is pretty well known: Below a certain threshold, money is the most important thing. Above it, it is not. This is very different from the extreme pacifist mindset. The equivalent would be: "There are certain circumstances where it is important to kill another. Outside of those circumstances, it should not be the primary means."

The claim is horse manure which is why it includes no numbers for the threshold. My number matched his claim. Except that the claim is not what was meant. What was meant is "if I'm compensated well into six figures then the other things matter more than incremental dollar".

The article is describing how to peddle low salaries + magic pixie dust as a way to swindle the candidates to accept non-competitive offers.

> Telling people what is important to them and ignoring their own claims on what is important to them will not make you many friends.

That's ok. I do not need many friends. Especially if I have to accept as friends those that claim 'oh, it is excellent' when in reality they mean something else.

Re: Make Stronger Offers to Engineering Candidates and Boost Your Closes

#130

Post by BeetleB »

Spooky23 wrote: post #126
BeetleB wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're being downvoted because you ignored this: >Money is important, but past a certain point (when you are able to live comfortably and are no longer feeling stressed about your personal/family finances), other factors come into play. It's difficult to counter his comment when you don't address it and give an obviously low salary.

People do stuff like offer lowball offers that aren't livable. Back in 2000, I got exposed to this out of school-- VP of whatever offers me $27k (with a salary review in 6 months) to be a DBA. "I got up and said 'thanks'". He followed me out to the parking lot and doubled the offer. At the end of the day, money matters, and all of the bullshit about "other factors" are just brought into the mix because fringe benefit…

>People do stuff like offer lowball offers that aren't livable.

Which is not disputed by anyone in this thread. Why do we keep bringing it up?

>At the end of the day, money matters, and all of the bullshit about "other factors" are just brought into the mix because fringe benefits are cheaper than cash. For me, a good working environment is the ante. If you're an asshole, you don't make the cut. The rest is all about compensation.

You do realize you just admitted there is something you care about more than compensation?

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