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Fun - a new programming language for the realtime web

marcuswest.in

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Re: Fun - a new programming language for the realtime web

#21

Post by Keyframe »

asnyder wrote: post #15

A similar sort of thing is already possible using the NOLOH PHP Framework ( http://www.noloh.com ) using its Listener Control. Using a quick example similar to the post you can simply do something like: http://noloh.diffpaste.com/#/691/ . Furthermore, you can specify the various options, whether it's stream, short-poll, or long-polling. A video demonstrating it from this past March's Confoo web conference can be foun…

Looks rather interesting. I'm not sure I follow licensing options. So it's a framework one cannot use for free in commercial projects? Also, are there any performance reviews of it and is that "Loading..." configurable or hardwired? Thanks.

edit: I may be out of the loop a bit, but how does google and other spiders crawl pages like that?

Re: Fun - a new programming language for the realtime web

#22

Post by asnyder »

Keyframe wrote: post #21
asnyder wrote: post #15

A similar sort of thing is already possible using the NOLOH PHP Framework ( http://www.noloh.com ) using its Listener Control. Using a quick example similar to the post you can simply do something like: http://noloh.diffpaste.com/#/691/ . Furthermore, you can specify the various options, whether it's stream, short-poll, or long-polling. A video demonstrating it from this past March's Confoo web conference can be foun…

Looks rather interesting. I'm not sure I follow licensing options. So it's a framework one cannot use for free in commercial projects? Also, are there any performance reviews of it and is that "Loading..." configurable or hardwired? Thanks. edit: I may be out of the loop a bit, but how does google and other spiders crawl pages like that?

Loading is configurable, it's just an object like anything else. See LoadIndicator http://dev.noloh.com/#/api/WebPage/LoadIndicator/.

We're sorry about the confusion regarding licensing. Essentially free for anything non-commercial (open-source, educational, non-profit), and development. We offer free hosted sandboxes, in addition to free downloads for developing.

Essentially, you only pay when you go live with a commercial product, and even then we offer affordable options. There will be a comprehensive performance review in an upcoming issue of php|architect magazine. Since the framework is built from the ground-up to be lightweight and on-demand the result is considerable. You can read more about that here: http://www.noloh.com/#/home/&expanded=performance.

In regards to the spidering question, see: http://dev.noloh.com/#/articles/Search-Engine-Friendly/.

You can also read a comprehensive article in this past May's cover story in php|architect, http://www.phparch.com/magazine/2010/may/.

Re: Fun - a new programming language for the realtime web

#23

Post by marcuswestin »

asnyder wrote: post #22
Keyframe wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looks rather interesting. I'm not sure I follow licensing options. So it's a framework one cannot use for free in commercial projects? Also, are there any performance reviews of it and is that "Loading..." configurable or hardwired? Thanks. edit: I may be out of the loop a bit, but how does google and other spiders crawl pages like that?

Loading is configurable, it's just an object like anything else. See LoadIndicator http://dev.noloh.com/#/api/WebPage/LoadIndicator/ . We're sorry about the confusion regarding licensing. Essentially free for anything non-commercial (open-source, educational, non-profit), and development. We offer free hosted sandboxes, in addition to free downloads for developing. Essentially, you only pay when you go live with a co…

Fun is MIT licensed :)

http://github.com/marcuswestin/fun/commit/05870f3f54fda43090...

Re: Fun - a new programming language for the realtime web

#24

Post by asnyder »

marcuswestin wrote: post #23
asnyder wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Loading is configurable, it's just an object like anything else. See LoadIndicator http://dev.noloh.com/#/api/WebPage/LoadIndicator/ . We're sorry about the confusion regarding licensing. Essentially free for anything non-commercial (open-source, educational, non-profit), and development. We offer free hosted sandboxes, in addition to free downloads for developing. Essentially, you only pay when you go live with a co…

Fun is MIT licensed :) http://github.com/marcuswestin/fun/commit/05870f3f54fda43090...

We feel that NOLOH is significantly advanced to warrant a small fee for commercial purposes. As you can see from my previous post we offer several free license options, including free licenses for open-source projects.

Fortunately/Unfortunately (depending on your viewpoint), we live in a capitalistic society and need to recoup some of the costs associated with our team's development over the past six years.

Furthermore, we open-source every new module and component on our github either through an MIT or BSD license. We've even taken the unprecedented step of integrating github into our site as can be read here: http://dev.noloh.com/#/blog/2010/06/30/demos-demos-everywher....

Like Google, we open source anything non-related to the NOLOH core. Similarly , they don't release the details or the code to their search engine. Also, we're working on legalize that would open source the core if anything were to happen to us.

Re: Fun - a new programming language for the realtime web

#25

Post by Keyframe »

asnyder wrote: post #22
Keyframe wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looks rather interesting. I'm not sure I follow licensing options. So it's a framework one cannot use for free in commercial projects? Also, are there any performance reviews of it and is that "Loading..." configurable or hardwired? Thanks. edit: I may be out of the loop a bit, but how does google and other spiders crawl pages like that?

Loading is configurable, it's just an object like anything else. See LoadIndicator http://dev.noloh.com/#/api/WebPage/LoadIndicator/ . We're sorry about the confusion regarding licensing. Essentially free for anything non-commercial (open-source, educational, non-profit), and development. We offer free hosted sandboxes, in addition to free downloads for developing. Essentially, you only pay when you go live with a co…

Thanks for your answers. If you don't mind me asking, how is that model working for you? It's not that I am cheap of anything like that, but somehow I am put off by that model in a web framework. Maybe it's due to an abundance of pretty good free ones out there, since I'd never be put off by any other middleware that is not web oriented. Weird, I know.

Re: Fun - a new programming language for the realtime web

#27

Post by asnyder »

Keyframe wrote: post #25
asnyder wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Loading is configurable, it's just an object like anything else. See LoadIndicator http://dev.noloh.com/#/api/WebPage/LoadIndicator/ . We're sorry about the confusion regarding licensing. Essentially free for anything non-commercial (open-source, educational, non-profit), and development. We offer free hosted sandboxes, in addition to free downloads for developing. Essentially, you only pay when you go live with a co…

Thanks for your answers. If you don't mind me asking, how is that model working for you? It's not that I am cheap of anything like that, but somehow I am put off by that model in a web framework. Maybe it's due to an abundance of pretty good free ones out there, since I'd never be put off by any other middleware that is not web oriented. Weird, I know.

That's a good question, one that we'll be answering in a detailed blog post later in the summer. In short, there is push back from many that would like a free and open-source product, but there's also acceptance from many seasoned developers and development shops that understand that a tool with NOLOH's feature set takes a significant amount of time and money to develop, test, and support.

The truth of the matter is that unfortunately, our competitive advantage lies within our code and the significant R&D we've done over the years. We're also not at the stage where we could fend off a larger more well known framework from integrating our technology into their core if we did open it.

Many of our users feel that NOLOH easily pays for itself in its first day of use. We also provide unparalleled development support in addition to constant updates and new features.

I'm always surprised by those that will hem and haw over something that's not open-source. We spent the past six years of our lives and significant financial resources developing the technology.

As stated in a comment below, we open-source everything not related to the core, and are even working on legalese to ensure that if anything happens to us, the core would be opened.

My personal opinion is that if you value your time NOLOH is definitely a great tool to have in your development toolbox. I personally wouldn't do any web development without it.

Re: Fun - a new programming language for the realtime web

#28

Post by gregwebs »

marcuswestin wrote: post #11
mgrouchy wrote: post #9

Is it just me or does this seem like a "Fun" way to code up an unmaintainable mess? Some of the ideas such as the state synchronization stuff is neat, but would probably be better suited as part of another framework/template language.

Totally - remains to be seen! Someone should take the underlying realtime datastore ( http://github.com/marcuswestin/fin ) and bundle it with mustache or !

http://github.com/ahe/choco bundles a different js datastore (js-model) with sammy and has mustache support

Re: Fun - a new programming language for the realtime web

#29

Post by marcuswestin »

wangwei wrote: post #20
marcuswestin wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is the realtime synchronization across all clients. Fun comes with a complete network stack, ensuring that the state you're viewing is always up to date. Does that make sense? I actually do think that's a new value proposition.

Still, creating a new language just for bindings (across all clients) still doesn't make sense to me. A good javascript library or framework should be good enough.

There's a javascript library under the hood that does just that: http://github.com/marcuswestin/fin

Re: Fun - a new programming language for the realtime web

#30

Post by m0th87 »

marcuswestin wrote: post #8
bobbywilson0 wrote: post #7

This certainly is an interesting idea. It seems to me though that all of your application logic is jammed into a single file at the presentation layer. This might suffice for very small apps, and that's fine if it is your goal. I can't imagine that you just define all of your logic in one file. How would you go about reusing code? Could you potentially separate out logic from your template? I would also like to see h…

Absolutely! You can declare something akin to a function, which takes arguments and emits HTML. Imagine e.g. let taskTemplate = template(task) { task.title } for (task in tasks) { taskTemplate(task) } I'm not decided on syntax yet. You can definitely separate out logic from template this way. Fun outputs javascript, not HTML - the javascript then builds the DOM.

But it still outputs something that is only consumable by web browsers. It seems to me like the potential productivity gains you'd get out of Fun would only be for tightly coupled systems where you're not worried about exposing an API, and all clients use web browsers.
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