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Don't Talk to the Police (2012)

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Re: Don't Talk to the Police (2012)

#111

Post by ivraatiems »

Uehreka wrote: post #63
gst wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I get arrested and say "I want a lawyer". What lawyer do I get? A random public defender? A private defender? If it's private defender, am I able to ask for another lawyer if the fees are too high? Will that lawyer refer me to another more specialized lawyer later on?

I always wonder this when people bring this up. Am I a weirdo for not having a lawyer on retainer at all times? That doesn’t sound like something that would be affordable for most people. And quite frankly, I don’t even know how I’d go about looking for or evaluating a lawyer.

> And quite frankly, I don’t even know how I’d go about looking for or evaluating a lawyer.

You're not alone. Here's a great guide to getting an attorney for someone who's never done it: https://www.popehat.com/2011/05/27/how-to-cold-call-a-lawyer...

(I'm not Popehat and I get nothing for recommending him, but his work is excellent.)

Re: Don't Talk to the Police (2012)

#112

Post by throwaway0255 »

ivraatiems wrote: post #108
throwaway0255 wrote: post #106

For most of the population this is very bad advice. It’s important to remember he’s assuming you have or can afford legal counsel. If you’re like most people and you can’t, ignoring or refusing to answer the questions of a police officer can seem rude, can make you appear guilty, and can get you singled out for charges, that later you won’t be able to afford to defend yourself against. I knew someone who took the adv…

> For most of the population this is very bad advice. No, you are not correct. In the United States - where this advice was given - it is excellent advice. It is the only advice any competent attorney or student of US law will ever give you. > It’s important to remember he’s assuming you have or can afford legal counsel. If you’re like most people and you can’t, ignoring or refusing to answer the questions of a polic…

You can talk about rights and due process all you want, I’m not disagreeing with any of that, that’s great for people who can afford it. I’m talking about the practical outcome of this for average Americans.

The practical outcome is that for every 1 time this advice prevents you from accidentally incriminating yourself, there will be 20 times that it just makes officers dislike you and abuse their authority over you, especially if you’re young and especially if they can tell you’re poor.

Re: Don't Talk to the Police (2012)

#113

Post by ivraatiems »

tzs wrote: post #7

How far do you take this? For example, suppose you hear someone down the street yell, "My baby!", look up, and see a man shove a woman to the ground, take a baby from a stroller, get into a car with the baby, and drive quickly up the street, leaving behind the woman screaming "He took my baby! Help!". They pass you, and a block farther up turn left onto a freeway on ramp. 30 seconds later a police officer drives by,…

Everyone draws the line somewhere different. Certainly, if someone's life is in danger and I can help save them by telling a police officer who is nearby immediately, I'd do that. If I were in a traffic accident and I needed to call the police to document it, or I was the victim of a minor crime, I'd probably talk to them about that, too. I've gone down to the station to talk to the police about an incident report on a traffic accident. Even doing that is a risk, but it was a very minor accident and I had already agreed to pay for the damages, so it didn't seem like my exposure was high.

On the other hand, if I were the victim or came across the scene of a major crime - e. g. a robbery, a murder, etc. - once any immediate danger was resolved, I would probably contact my attorney and tell them. (Your mileage may vary; not everyone has an attorney to contact right away.) It's easy to go from a bystander or victim to being the suspect. If police showed up at my home without warning, and I didn't call them, I wouldn't talk to them.

Re: Don't Talk to the Police (2012)

#114

Post by ivraatiems »

throwaway0255 wrote: post #112
ivraatiems wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For most of the population this is very bad advice. No, you are not correct. In the United States - where this advice was given - it is excellent advice. It is the only advice any competent attorney or student of US law will ever give you. > It’s important to remember he’s assuming you have or can afford legal counsel. If you’re like most people and you can’t, ignoring or refusing to answer the questions of a polic…

You can talk about rights and due process all you want, I’m not disagreeing with any of that, that’s great for people who can afford it. I’m talking about the practical outcome of this for average Americans. The practical outcome is that for every 1 time this advice prevents you from accidentally incriminating yourself, there will be 20 times that it just makes officers dislike you and abuse their authority over you,…

> You can talk about rights and due process all you want, I’m not disagreeing with any of that, that’s great for people who can afford it. I’m talking about the practical outcome of this for average Americans.

Rights and due process apply to everyone, not just people who can afford it or people the police like. Telling someone "don't assert your rights because you're poor" is telling them to self-subjugate; that's awful advice not only because it hurts the person, but also because it actively harms our system of justice.

Again, everyone has the right to an attorney and the government must give you one. It's in the Constitution. A busy, tired public defender who is competent is still better than not having a lawyer. An incompetent attorney is also still better, because "my counsel was incompetent" is a solid way to win an appeal of a conviction if it can be proven.

> The practical outcome is that for every 1 time this advice prevents you from accidentally incriminating yourself, there will be 20 times that it just makes officers dislike you and abuse their authority over you, especially if you’re young and especially if they can tell you’re poor.

Do you have any evidence of this at all? That is, do you have evidence that going along with what an abusive officer tells you to do is going to prevent them from abusing you?

If an officer doesn't like you and is willing to abuse their authority as a result, what are you supposed to do? Let them? You aren't going to stop them from doing so by "being nice," plenty of people are polite to police officers and get in trouble anyway.

Let's play this out:

If you say "I want a lawyer," and the officer arrests you and charges you, but you're innocent, the lawyer is there to prove your innocence. If you answer the officer's questions, you have no idea whether they'll arrest and charge you or not, and if they do, they now have evidence that will make proving your innocence much, much harder to do.

If you say "I want a lawyer," and the officer hits you over the head or continues to scream questions at you, then arrests you and charges you, the officer has just committed a crime and their testimony is now suspect. Things proceed as above, but your lawyer now has ammunition to use to help you in court.

Both of these outcomes are better in the long term than this bizarre "go along with whatever because the system sucks" approach.

Re: Don't Talk to the Police (2012)

#115

Post by Simon_says »

joshmn wrote: post #65

As someone who has been through the criminal justice system a handful of times, here's what I always tell people: If you are approached by a policeman/woman, you don't need to say anything other than, "I'm going to ask you to refer all questions to my counsel as I'm not prepared to handle or able to answer any questions you may have." Don't have counsel? Get some. Can't afford any? Tell the policeman/woman that you'l…

I've heard this advice a lot. Have you ever followed this in real life? How did it work out for you? I worry that cops have the potential to make my life very unpleasant if I annoy them.

Re: Don't Talk to the Police (2012)

#116

Post by pps43 »

sundarurfriend wrote: post #76
pps43 wrote: post #55

This is probably too extreme. Andrew Branca recommends [1] to "say little" rather than to "say nothing". [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/CCW/comments/5sicm5/the_law_of_self...

The link doesn't explain anything about his argument except that it's in his book. What does "say little" entail and why does he recommend that? Also, from the context it seems to be about what to do after a self-defense shooting - is his advice specific to that context, or a general argument?

He's specializing in use of force for self-defence, not necessarily shooting. The argument goes like this:

"Many people advocate that in the aftermath of a defensive use-of-force event you say literally nothing to the police except that you want to speak with your lawyer. And that 'Say NOTHING' approach is one way to go.

At Law of Self Defense, however, we suggest you consider an alternative, the 'Say LITTLE' approach -- meaning, saying a few very specific things, then asserting your rights to silence and counsel. Among the things we suggest saying, even before having your attorney present, is that your use of force was an act of self-defense.

One reason we suggest this is that most claims of self-defense are simply BS claims by bad guys, and these are often fabricated after the fact while they're sitting in their holding cell. If you defer claiming self-defense until hours after your first interaction with the police, you begin to look a lot like one of those fabricators. And if you DO, you can rest assured that this fact will be brought up in trial."

There's more details in his book and classes that are not freely available online.

Re: Don't Talk to the Police (2012)

#117

Post by scarecrowbob »

Simon_says wrote: post #115
joshmn wrote: post #65

As someone who has been through the criminal justice system a handful of times, here's what I always tell people: If you are approached by a policeman/woman, you don't need to say anything other than, "I'm going to ask you to refer all questions to my counsel as I'm not prepared to handle or able to answer any questions you may have." Don't have counsel? Get some. Can't afford any? Tell the policeman/woman that you'l…

I've heard this advice a lot. Have you ever followed this in real life? How did it work out for you? I worry that cops have the potential to make my life very unpleasant if I annoy them.

Yeah, like, it's as easy as not responding with an answer when they ask you if you know how fast you were going. It's not that hard and if you're polite and you're white you're probably going to be okay.

Re: Don't Talk to the Police (2012)

#118

Post by pps43 »

dazc wrote: post #109
sundarurfriend wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The link doesn't explain anything about his argument except that it's in his book. What does "say little" entail and why does he recommend that? Also, from the context it seems to be about what to do after a self-defense shooting - is his advice specific to that context, or a general argument?

'What does "say little" entail...' I'm guessing, saying nothing infers guilt whereas saying 'I can't remember...' (or similar) leaves room for manoeuvre at a later date?

"Saying little" means providing only the absolutely necessary information. If you were in a self-defense situation and your attacker threw his weapon in a bush, you want the police to know that so that they can find it. If there were witnesses who can corraborate your story then you want the police to talk to them before they disappear forever. If you need medical help, you should ask for it.

Re: Don't Talk to the Police (2012)

#119

Post by Simon_says »

thomas_howland wrote: post #54
gst wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I get arrested and say "I want a lawyer". What lawyer do I get? A random public defender? A private defender? If it's private defender, am I able to ask for another lawyer if the fees are too high? Will that lawyer refer me to another more specialized lawyer later on?

The point is that after you have requested a lawyer they are obliged to refrain from questioning you.

They're obliged to, but do they actually?

This guy asked for a "lawyer dog", which apparently is not a thing.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/true-crime/wp/2017/11/02...

Or will asking for a lawyer work for me, since I'm not ethnically diverse?

Re: Don't Talk to the Police (2012)

#120

Post by gkya »

tzs wrote: post #7

How far do you take this? For example, suppose you hear someone down the street yell, "My baby!", look up, and see a man shove a woman to the ground, take a baby from a stroller, get into a car with the baby, and drive quickly up the street, leaving behind the woman screaming "He took my baby! Help!". They pass you, and a block farther up turn left onto a freeway on ramp. 30 seconds later a police officer drives by,…

I watched the entire video; I think they are talking about how to act during an interrogation, not in a setting like in your example.
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